I dont think its fair to say there is no guys styling in class routines.

I ALWAYS teach styling and footwork in partnerwork classes.

Infact, i dont understand why people separate the 2. For me styling and footwork is as much part of the dance as partnerwork, and i believe people are far to dependent on partnerwork, teachers and students included.

- Edited by tom doherty on 31/03/2010 at 11:49

Just some opinions on this interesting subject:

-  learning styling is hard > teaching styling may be unpopular or not a good marketing choice

-  as long as a class lasts just 1 hour there is not much time for everything, when a class lasts 1 hour and half, as happens in other contexts, there are 40 mins to dedicate to shines and body movement in a structured way.

-  cool moves are often considered the quick way for being a cool dancer, despite the fact that the coolest move is not that cool without the appropriate body movement.

-  students (especially male ones) are normally interested in styling at a later stage, i.e when they usually attend to advanced classes. There are not many advanced classes around (maybe not many advanced students? or not many teachers capable to teach to advanced students?). Focusing too much on styling at an earlier stage may be unpopular or a bad marketing choice.

Question for any teachers - if ye're teaching a shine do ye try to pick a shine to go with a particular piece of music or do ye just aim to teach the footwork to whatever music is at hand? 

With regards body movement, what I'd look for myself is one class dedicated solely to body isolation and movement exercises that I can take home and practise myself, and then for the regular one hour classes to incorporate some form of body movement into the routine so that I can get a chance to apply anything I might have learned to the dance.

Hey Ciaran,

We run a body isolation and balance class as well as a body posture class every year at Salsa School (and are looking to expand on that this year if we can get the timetable worked out for it!). A lot of congresses tend to try and put a few more of these sorts of classes on if they can...

Oh and in relation to Mens styling; Whenever we put it on the timetable for Salsa School no-one ever turns up! (Plus with a 2:1 ratio of men to women at most classes it's hard to explain why you are taking away some of the precious men for a solo class!)

What we've done instead is try to put on a few classes that specifically are for styling within partner work. This tends to cover "him and her" which isn't ideal but it's the only we we've found to get men to the classes..

Style comes out of you yourself and also YOU reacting even anticipating the music.

Shine's are a great path to that freer state... do some shines, ya don't have to learn the damned thing, tis the same as partnerwork, take a little piece out, add it to your arsenal ... 

What you do need to learn is.. become comfortable criss crossing, flaring, turning on your feet while remaining in control - balanced and weighted right... posture, spotting and natural movement. . .

Look at youTube BUT mostly dance 'too' the music!!!

 

Ado

ps: Do yourself a favour go along to 2nFro Wednesdays!

pps: Don't dance flat footed.

ppps: Ciaran, last time I checked salsa was still a social dance... when you've drowned 8 pints and dancing in the local night club you don't learn full dance cheoro routine to Black Eye Pea's 'lady humps'... so its the same in salsa, don't learn long routines, pick up little gems here and there use them where appropriately fits the music... 

There's another point here, the alcohol would normally make you freer... in salsa you need to get freer right, shines give you that confidence and the know how to make that happen... without the hangover!!!  

Well, I have one thing to point out, someone will probably disagree but it is my firm opinion consolidated in several years. Styling is not that different for men and ladies. The way you move shoulders, chest and hips is the same, even if obviously with different proportions, and with difference in hands and arms movements. It is very possible to teach body movement to man and ladies all together (Frankie Martinez and Oliver Pineda frequently do it, just to name a few), same thing for body isolation. Lady and man styling is different, of course, and they can take advantage of separate classes, but the foundation, that is what a lot of dancers are lacking, is the same.

i agree. the problem is how the movements are taught. think back to how you learned your basic step. it was probably 6, or 8 (depending on your teacher) movements, done in a repetitive manner to drill in the movement. this is a good way for people to remember. the problem here is 2 fold. teachers often seem to not want revisit the basics, to enhance them because they are perhaps afriad people wont want to relearn techniques. and many studends, guys especially just want to move on, and learn as many techniques as possible, so they arent prepared to revisit the basics. so even if a teacher had a class "how to style your basic techniques" many students woulndt go for it. there are many people out there who arent doing their basic step correctly, or with good form, but these are the very people who would not go to such a class. for me its an incremental process, its important teachers dont move too quickly, but this is easier said than done, because in general, guys just want moves moves moves.

What can I say...you are totally right.

I wanna insist on a specific point, 1 hour may be too short. If classes lasted more, there would be the time for warm up (that is mostly body isolation, so damn important), time for shines (important for body movement, coordination, understanding of rithmic patterns...), and yes, to satisfy students craving for new moves (and maybe stuffing the moves with some styling too).

Probably it is not possible to have classes of 1h and half in Ireland, but I think it is a major problem because condensing all in 1 hour is really hard. 

- Edited by P@olo_T on 21/05/2010 at 18:20

I will usually have a few minutes of warm up, stretching, body isolation, and then 1 hour of class, sometimes it can overrun if i get carried away. But 1 hour is typically enough to teach a full shine, and partnerwork pattern, it depends on what your goals are. And again its to do with how its taught. I keep my patterns as short as possible, but many teahers ive seen pad them out. How many times have you taken an intermediate advanced class, that starts with a basic step and a CBL, and usaully there probably only 1 or 2 bars that are actually new t you.I typically strip a pattern down to  a few techniqes/variations i want to teach, and then show examples of how we would get into the pattern if necessary. Far too much emphasis is put on partnerwork, and teaching people techniques they know already, but packaging them differently, so they can fill the hour.

If you're going to an Int\Advanced class that is spending any time breaking down a CBL then it's not an Int\Adv class..

i agree. but i dont mean breaking down CBL, i mean using unnecessary padding in a pattern, teaching patterns that are 10 bars long, with only maybe 2 or 3 bars of interesting stuff.

Mike, I dunno, my experience of body isolation = 1 hour of intermediate yoga ( i used to be an addict here so I know the score on this ).   Theres nothing too wrong with that, but once you've learned the exercises, its a matter of dicipline and time, to see if you keep doing them,  which is kinda why I avoid those classes once I know the 411.

I love shines, but then again I love showing off ( after I found salsa ) so it suits me, not every fella feels that way; many pefer to be understated - also I'd agree with 100% with Joey Ramone's post (one day I'll find out who JR is and buy him/her? a pint   Shines to me are like bar tending school, you learn how to make a cocktail as best you can, then you make it your own.   Once I'm shown a shine I conciously change it- it becomes mine and mind alone ( ok maybe Matt + I share the same cowboy shine - but we came up with the modification at the same time and its waaaay too cool to lose )

My experience of Salsa School is limited to last year, but yes , I guess mens styling / body iso is hard to go to when you are dragged to other classes cos your friends need you but I'm still glad they are held   They help a lot of people get out of their shell and experiment, as well as teach good posture + technique - newbies especially could do a lot worse than attend one or two in a congress scenario.

MTC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 22/05/2010 at 13:38

- Edited by Hugh1a on 23/05/2010 at 20:11

styling could be incorporated into a class routine ... why shouldnt men and women both be allowed to show off

Hi Hipshake,

Isnt that the norm?   Usually theres a 5-10 minute warm up which probably doubles as a 'learn how to shine' bit, and the class by rights should contain styling for men and women.  Often I think that men have it a little better - theres lots of cool styling for fellas and often it can be more challenging, then I see how many variations there are for salceras and wake up

If the class you are in doesnt do any mens styling at all, then its time to say that to your instructor and ask him to include some/

MTC/H.

Depends on what you mean with incorporated... For sure the study of the basic step cannot be taught during the partner-work, at least not at the early stage. Moving shoulders, arms, hands, chest and hips with the right coordination with the feet, require a damn hard job and it is the grounding for any kind of styling. Maybe it can be taught at the beginning of the class in place of the warm up..

Tom said:

>For me styling and footwork is as much part of the dance as partnerwork

I like  this Tom Its not how most people think of Salsa though. I think that us men in general need to have a paradigm shift in getting beyond "styling = doing shines". The idea of "doing a shine" is off putting for many women, and probably even more men. But if we saw it more in terms of just, y'know, "dancing", we'd maybe see it as a lot more fundamental.

I realised a while back that on a typical salsa dance floor, many or most of the women on the floor are dancing. And most of the guys are leading moves. Which is not the same thing.

But if you were to go to an ordinary disco (e.g. wedding or club) with some body-confident blokes (non salsa dancers), they'd be shaking their ass pretty freely without "doing shines"...