Not just you Jak,  I've noticed the same thing in both classes and events I've attended.   

I'm not opening a can of worms again, but there are other threads on this site which predicted the possiblity of this situation arising

Supply at the mo' has currently outpaced demand afaics....

Hey Guys,

Is true to say numbers have been dropped in some clubs that have been for number of years successful.

As a promoter I don't think Salsa in Dublin is dying Is just changing with new faces new dancers new clubs that are coming up that's all.

Need to be more in touch with what's going on in salsa  ..

Hugh, I hadn't seen those threads so have no aim to open any form of lumbricular containers. Mario-have you been many clubs other than your own-the numbers are significantly down! There are posts about getting feedback from students in oter threads but surely for those for whom it's a business there would be some solid market research, focus group research, customer feedback, adaptive strategy?! Obviously not, it seems!

Hey,

Well as I sad you need to be more in touch with what’s going on in Salsa these days.

As far as I know danzon did one you can correct me if I am wrong?  We do it every year which include our service and competitors services our entertainment and our competitor’s entertainment and much more.

As you seem to be so interested to know what has gone wrong to Salsa in Dublin that is dying in your opinion. You should do independent research amongst your salseros friends and give me or us feedback in what we can change to make it better.

I would thank you allot if anyone could help me or us in haw we can improve Salsa in Dublin.

I do think all promoters in Dublin should meet up and see if they can do something big for the Salsa in Ireland and have equal responsibility in protecting the salsa scene from politics/ snobbery or even from dying. One person can only do so much but a group of persons can do magic for all parties. Close relationship amongst promoters in Dublin or Ireland would help the salsa scene and their business grove.  By having all promoters work together I am very sure they could find common grounds in regulating the prices, the standard salsa level, the environment of the salsa scene, giving work to one another that they don’t have the time to do it. They could work together in doing the biggest event Ireland or even Europe has ever seen.  I do believe without looking out of Ireland we could get as many as 1000 or even more Salsa Bachata dancers in one place if all promoters sat down and live their egos out at the door for this event or for salsa that they love so much.  Because they would look back many years to come and regret not having been a part of history in Irish Salsa scene which othere promoters to come will do it I think .

All salsa promoters in Ireland should never be forgotten. Because they made salsa what is today or what is going to be in the future. Without them you or me would not be Salsa Dancing today.

Hmmm....   to quote a rather naff movie, "death is only the beginning"      It is true new instructors are turning up, but I think there are plenty of old ones too, there may not be enough students to around in recession prone Ireland to pick up the slack.

The promotors work together to regulate prices?  LOL, apologies but thats the very definition of cartel!  It would be insanely bad for Salsa in my opinion, or any business to have that happen.

I guess you can see from threads like Michelles that established instructors /club owners arent happy with the current situ and have recognised the need to 'defend their turf'  or to put it another way, 'freeze out by monopoly".    That kind of preservation is does work e.g. in the theatre world there is a group that has had a strangle hold on Irish acting / stage work  - which is why in 'Fair city' everyone acts the same way for 'surprise" , "anger" and "happy"  .    

On average though , it should not stave off the flow of the market long.

Standards self regulate, prices self regulate, we should support the free market if we care about growth - if everyone are in it primarily for the money - then forget my comment

On the idea of 1000 + attendance for a Salsa party - count me in!   That would put Ireland on the map Salsa wise, which I dont think it currently is,  but...as I'm sure a lot would ask,  where would the profits go.....?

Tc4n,H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 09/11/2010 at 14:03

- Edited by Hugh1a on 09/11/2010 at 17:09

Mario-I like your ideas and especially the theme of salsa promoters working together. What action will you take to get it going?

Hugh, regulating prices is not necessarily a bad thing-there's little at the moment to separate the prices in many venues-where the punter gains through promoters coming together is in the improved quality of experience because standards improve due to the cross-pollination of ideas. Free market capitalism is a fine and noble aspiration when its capable of being supported but at this point it's life support that's needed for some venues. As for standards self regulating-wow!!!! I'm shocked you would suggest that as being a good thing. It was that self regulation that got the banks where they are and while salsa promoters do not bear resemblance to the banks, the principle remains the same. That's why in other threads I've highlighted how few salsa promoters are professionally qualified-full marks and kudos to those who are! Professional qualification being but one element of how standards may be achieved. In summary, there is no doubt that huge benefits would accrue from salsa promoters working more closely together. The key question is if they have the business understanding (and for many it's a hobby that turned into a business) to realise this and to take action to make it happen.

Hey guys,

I was only suggesting some common grounds for promoters could found in working to gather I think.

 To better or grove the salsa scene money is the biggest factor in grooving salsa  scene in Ireland. Promoters have to pay teachers, clubs, advertisement,registration, website and so much more that the list has no ending.  they spent so much of there time for salsa scene in Ireland at times even loosing there own money. 

I can only tell you try and be one and you know what it takes to be a salsa promoter and the income you get out of it. Because some promoter who have been for years like Dr Rumba Afrimania,  Hilary Danzon, Richard SalsaBelfast, Chris Salsa-ni,  could write a book to explain to you all what it take to be Salsa promoter. I been promoting just for 2 years i need time to writ that book :0

I cant talk for all. But will talk for me. I do it because I love it and it gives me happiness when I had a student coming to me and say THIS amazing it has giving me happiness in my social life that I was looking for many years..

For me been a salsa promoter is not for life but I will make sure the company that I promote  will be there for life to give happiness to those people that have found happiness like me in Salsa...

Salsa is a way of life for those that are in it.

So you keep talking about it and we will do the work the only thing i ask. Think and understand what we do and way we do it and what we take in the end of all this.

Before you start talking about cartel, 'defend their turf'  'Fair city' , if everyone are in it primarily for the money,where would the profits go.....? if they have the business understanding, 

Hi Mario,

The terms I use are based on the observation of the system in place, and what is currently going on.  I mean no offense, but I call a spade a spade, a diamond a diamond.   A cartel by definition is about suppliers fixing prices to maximise profit.  There are few ecconomists in the world that would say thats a good idea for consumers.

Bank regulation and quality of salsa intruction regulation are two very different things.  If you go to a salsa class, and the instruction is garbage, or the cost is too high, you can easily and swiftly find another to suit you tastes.   This kind of forces standards to remain high due to force of competition.  I've seen it in other hobbies, 'regulation' is brought in on the pretext of improving standards, and perhaps they do initially, but overtime, it can only be bad for the art/business.

The banking sector collapse, was caused by non regulation of their lending practises, combined (alledgedly) with collusion between banks, financial, and political upperclasses, an Irish exhaustion of gombeen politics to the point of apathy and a vacum of strong moral and ethical standards in government.   

People are more likely to change their spouse than their bank - and this was played to unfortunately massive damage to a country I am so very proud of and now very sad for.   The free market dictated that when a bank misbehaves like this, it should fail, badly, and a new bank rise from the ashes.   The problem was the government ignored the rules of the market and bailed out bank after bank regardless of their importance, in a move which history will show to be the most cynical act of theft to the Irish people in the history of the state.  

Ok, I've gone so far off topic I'm scaring myself.    For me and I would say 80-90% of salsa-holics, its a nice, addictive pastime that improves the health, keeps the brain thinking etc.   For those that teach every day or second day, yes fair enough, thats a career and lifestyle choice.   For a small few, it will be a way of life....but for the majority?   I just cant see it

MTC/H.

To be honest getting promoters working together was one of the big reasons we started salsa school and while some have embraced the idea, others haven't and there's not much you can do about that... We have no regular students (I don't teach salsa at all) so we rely on the promoters to get involved, come to the weekend and tell their students about it. Over the years we've tried several times to get some of the main promoters involved and they just aren't interested.

To my mind for them this is a business and we are the competition, they don't seem to see the benefit of becoming part of the larger community which is a pity. At this stage I think we've clearly proven that becoming part of Salsa School does nothing but benefit your business as a salsa promoter but some people still aren't interested..

Wow, there are some many ways to interpret Marios intial suggestion!      I've no objection to Salsa promoters getting together to make money for charity, thats a no brainer - for anyone that doesnt want to have a congress at the same time its gold and I agree, everyone knows Hillary, Sylvia, Nelson Joe, ,  Suavemente etc etc from the Salsa School.

I discussed this once with some other congress organisers about 2 years ago, I guess you could say they do/did see it as competition.   The usual line is "oh the Maynooth thing?  Thats more of a beginners only congress, we do a more intermediate to advanced one" ( why do I see knifes in my back in my future? )

Still its a comment I find a little funny as I've been there twice, and I'll be again next year, the fun factor alone for this one is excellent, and I like the continuous improvment approach, its very spiral model-ingy   ( I just wish it would nominate a new charity on a yearly basis - ISPCA or ISPCC, MS  or various other worthwhile organisations could also use the cash and have much less resources at their disposal than the CCH.)

We are back to the old chestnut of is salsa a business or an art form?   Those who have adopted it as a way of life, and art form, will not like it being referred to in business terms, those who see it as a business, still use the 'its an art form' as an umbrella to justify high costs and to elevate the perception of altruism which adds the bottom line.   Its not  a '-Do' style of hobby afaik, there is no goal to become a better person, no Nirvana to reach...is there?

I guess its not a popular viewpoint, and maybe I should work on sugar coating it,  I love salsa, and the people who post here, obviously also love it, almost certainly more than I, my comments are based on only on my observations, memory and experience, I have no axe to grind afaik.

Tc4n/H.   

Just to clarify something, Salsa School does not actually donate it's funds to charity directly - We were approached to see if we were willing to allow collection at the event for charity and we allowed it but all money collected on ticket sales go directly into the event itself. If you buy a ticket 100% of the money is spent on the event. If anyone else in the salsa community is involved in a charity then please feel free to approach us with any proposals you have for fund raising at next years salsa school.

Oh?  My bad , for some reason I had it in my head that it was a non-profit charity event, its one of the reasons I support it so vigorously.   Oh well, its still accurate to say its a fun  fest yes?   In terms of business, the points made even more valid then...

Hehe looks like I've confused you even more Salsa School IS a non-profit weekend we just don't raise any funds directly for charity.

Basically if you spent €95 on a weekend pass last year then every penny of that money was spent on the weekend itself - No-one involved with the organisation\running of the weekend was paid in any way for their time and all income was spent on the weekend itself.

On the charity side of things in 2009 one of our volunteers approached us to see if we would mind them putting some buckets out to raise fund for the childrens hospital and in 2010 the same volunteers were training for the Iron man competition again to raise funds for the hospital so we allowed them to do some fund raising activities at the weekend but the events constitution does not allow for any funds raised from tickets sales to be used for anything other than the weekend itself so no money from ticket sales went towards charity.

As we have said over and over all we do is collect your money, put it in one big pot and try to use that money to put on the best weekend we possibly can

- Edited by Mike on 16/11/2010 at 19:58

Hey guys I hop this not taken in the wrong way...

I can honestly say then SalsaDublin and BachataDublin is a  non-profit classes and club as all the income is spent for the teachers, the venue, flyers, poster website and much more... I as creator of SalsaDublin and BachataDublin dont take any money for me. All gose to get the best service I can get with the income we get from SalsaDublin and BachataDublin Students.

I can then say with all honesty all we do in SalsaDublin and BachataDublin  is collect your money, put it in one big pot and try to use that money to put on the best classes and clubs we possibly can 

SalsaDublin and BachataDublin is available to support any charity event in Dublin.Through our volunteer program we aim to support local charitable organisations to raise money for good causes by performing and teaching Salsa and Bachata. If you are running any Charity event and think SalsaDublin and BachataDublin may be able to help please do get in touch with us.

- Edited by sexymario on 17/11/2010 at 02:27

Edited by Mike to fix a bug that is causing the reply's not to come up in IE

- Edited by Mike on 19/11/2010 at 11:46

When you say goes to paying the teachers I assume that means paying yourself and your employees? Not exactly the same thing really, is it?

Well Not exactly the same thing really.

But is exactly like this, I dont get payed IN SalsaDublin and BachataDublin even for teaching and organizing.

I  assume you dont get payed in Salsa School for your work ??.

Yes in SalsaDublin and BachataDublin Teachers which are my employees do get payed as allot of other stuff we have to pay for.. 

I think you do pay your teachers in Salsa School for teaching ???

If you do pay them. That means  they are your employees, if they don't get payed they are your volunteers Like YOU and Me in our own  organization ??

is it exactly the same thing really, is it ?

I don't often agree with you Mario, but well said. I think, Mike, that the general point is that there is no profit margin, there is a set fee structure for the teachers and all other funds are re-invested in the business, unlike more traditional models where a percentage of the surplus of income over expenditure is used as a form of income for the owner of the business. On the point of this thread, Mario's clubs and classes seem to be doing quite well, in my opinion.

That's odd - I can't see the last three posts on this topic when I use Internet Explorer.  They show up grand in Firefox though.

Something wrong with some text that Mario copied and pasted into his reply, have edited his post to fix..

Jak, there is a difference between a company that is using profits to grow a business and a society that has a constitution that forbids any personal profit for anyone involved in the organisation\running of an event. We are officially registered as a non-profit organisation, is the same true of salsadublin\bachatadublin?