I'm used to paying 12.50 for a group lesson with club after, so to me anything more would be too costly and anything less would be a bargain.  Of course that all depends on the quality of the class - if the class was crap I'd balk at paying anything.  Never had a private lesson so I can't really comment.

As for feedback forms, I'd be all on for that - not every week, because I think people will generally need more time to form a good impression of the effectiveness of a class or a teacher, but maybe every two or three weeks.  Whether it's done through forms or informal chats, seeking feedback is always a good idea.

Hmmm....i dunno, if I was asked to pay 12.50 ph then I would expect some decent dancing afterward and some top quality instruction - for single income couples thats 25 smakers for an hour?   I know these days maybe thats not a lot to some, but it adds up....  ( thats the former college student in me talking )

These days I pay €10 euros for 2 lessons/classes and a dance-till-you-drop club after, but I have to admit, thats unusuaI, and commuting necessity made me seek out the closest club, so price didnt factor into it when I chose the club.  The welcome I get everytime I visit keeps me coming back     Never have taken a private class in Ireland, so no idea how much they cost?

I did see some classes advertised in Galway for ~ €8 per lesson with dance afterward, but havent attended the classes so cant comment on how good they are, but the club afterwards was brill, small enough dance floor, but good sound system and even a few party games, that was well over a year and a half ago though.    Sigh, Galway does seem to have a lot of advantages sometimes....

- Edited by Hugh1a on 31/05/2010 at 13:50

private lessons cost at least €50 for 1, but im sure you could get a deal if you took multiple lessons. ive seen international teachers charge up to $100 they are quite intense for both teacher and student alike.

Actually there is another and far better way to look at this question-how much should a teacher get for an hour-long lesson for their professional services? Essentially, a teacher is being paid for their time and expertise=professional services. Of course they will have to cover overheads in what they charge but a fundamental question is why do classes where there are more students tend to charge the same as classes where there are fewer students ? After all, the overheads remain the same regardless of class size and the more students the less the chance you are going to get attention from the teacher! I've seen classes (regular weekly ones) where there were more than 40 people in the class. Now, by anyone's reckoning that's €400 euro for the hour. If we assume that Tom's €50 for an hour is what teachers want for themselves does this lead us to believe that the classes that I saw had overheads of €350 per hour? I doubt it! Far more likely that the teachers were making alot of money. Of course this isn't the case for all teachers-only for some!

But, actually when you think about the MINIMUM of €50 per hour that Tom believes teachers are worth it doesn't stand up to scrutiny! Why? Well because the hourly rate for a qualified teacher in the schools we send our kids to is €46.85 and this INCLUDES 22% holiday pay (Source:ASTI website). Seems fair that salsa teachers according to Tom are worth more than the teachers who teach our kids?! Actually, NO because in many cases salsa teachers don't have the same qualifications as the teachers who teach our kids. For the most part salsa teachers don't have an honours degree in the subject, they haven't done any post-grad study (and very few have any knowledge of methodology), they are not liable to registration to a governing body, they don't have to abide by a compulsory code of ethics, they are not open to inspection, they can't be fired, they can't be disciplined, and that's before you consider the range of needs and difficulties that kids present with in a real school that you just don't get in a salsa class. Real teachers correct kids homework, they take home their copies and projects, I've never seen a salsa teacher walk away from a lesson with anything except preparation to do for the enxt lesson-preparation is something that a schoolteacher does for every lesson anyway. So, the people you entrust your kids to are better qualified, far more accountable, and do more work than a salsa teacher and yet it appears from Tom's post that salsa teachers should be paid more! Of course, I know dance teachers in this country who have formal qualifications in dance, who have registered with an accredited body and so I'm certainly not including them but there are certainly those operating in the dance arena who charge well and do not stack up against the basic criteria to be called a "teacher" in this country! So, Tom, what do you think? Should salsa teachers reduce their charges for their professional fees? I believe they should!

The way i read Toms post is €50 per hour refers to the charge for a 'private' lesson, you are talking about a group class of 40 where the takings are €400?  At the end of the day, the price Tom stated is I think reflective of what is charged for private lessons in this country...why? Because that is what people are willing to pay for these lessons so that is what is charged.
And the comparison with school teachers isnt great. I mean when i went to school, I had good teachers and bad teachers but they were all paid the same, point is just because they're qualified dosen't mean they're any good at teaching, and the same applies to dance teachers who have qualifications, just because a dance teacher has a qualification dosent mean he/she is a good teacher.
Do you think salsa teachers should video everyone in class, go home and spend the night reviewing the videos, making notes for every single student, photocopying pages out of books for students to study and go back and sit them all down one by one and correct their every mistake...maybe they could organise parent teacher meetings as well to get the parents of salsa dancers to tell their adult kids to work harder at their dancing.

Sean, the point is that the two groups are providing a comparable service, that is teaching people. It is evident that one group (schoolteachers) has much higher entry, academic and professional requirements and on the face of it do alot more work than the other group. If you don't believe that comparing salsa teachers to school teachers is a valid comparison then with what group are salsa teachers comparable for the purpose of comparing what they do and how much they are paid?

The €50 relates to the good old tiger bubble times! Now that times have changed isn't it time that the charges change too? What's more, isn't there something fundamentally wrong about a salsa teacher getting paid more per hour than a special needs teacher, or a good teacher in a tough inner-city school, or one of the many teachers who not only teach their classes but give selflessly of their time in sports, arts, and all manner of extracurricular events? Isn't it an indictment of what we value in society when the monetary value of a salsa teacher is greater than the value of a schoolteacher. If you believe, Sean, that salsa teachers should be paid more than the people who teach our kids (your kids too if you have any) then we really are coming from very different places and hold very different values!

Yes, I agree with you when you say "just because a dance teacher has a qualification dosent mean he/she is a good teacher." but I assume you mean a qualification in dance. My original post refers to knowledge of teaching methodology and there are two components to being effective as a dance teacher: academic understanding of the subject area and an ability to translate this into learning for the student which is mediated through the methodologies chosen. I don't know when you went to school but I can tell you that many of my friends are teachers and they spend alot of time preparing the how of what they will teach as much as the what/content.

As for your suggestion about videoing, it's a good idea! The notes and photocopying should only be done if they enhance the students' learning in a meaningful way. But correcting every mistake would be demoralising. I certainly believe that the level of feedback given in group classes is very poor in many instances and that there is much room for improvement in this country among many salsa teachers in this area.

I'm taking your last sentence as somewhat sarcastic and I really want to stay focused on the issues relevant to this topic.

- Edited by Jak on 01/06/2010 at 23:39

- Edited by Jak on 04/06/2010 at 01:28

jak, im going to refuse to get into a discussion with you, because you obviously have some personal vendetta against salsa teachers, you read things that arent there which is very frustrating, and you make irrelevant comparisons.  ive made my views clear in the thread "high priced salsa congresses" and it seems you are opening up this discussion again just for the sake of arguement. i found your posts on the previous thread insulting, and your personal message to me disrespectful of my views. ive also detailed some of the costs and overheads associated with being a salsa teacher in that thread. as i said before, your simplistic figures arent realistic. if you have a problem and feel a specific salsa teacher is earning too much, i suggest you take it up with them, rather than challenging everyone publicly.

what if i were to say, even though i know nothing about the job you do, or the industry you are in, i feel you are earning too much and you are not doing a good enough job, dispite the fact ive never met you, or seen you work. would that annoy you? im sure it would, and thats exactly what you are doing to every dance teacher you know nothing about, yet are covering with your sweeping generalisation.

i dont know what you are hoping to achieve here jak, but if your aim is to piss me off its starting to work.

Seeing as you're taking what a salsa teacher would charge for a private lesson, it would be a fairer comparison to look at what a secondary school teacher charges for a grind.  I know one teacher who charges more than 50 euro an hour for a one-on-one grind for Leaving Cert Irish - some parents are outraged by the price and go elsewhere, others pay and are happy they did because he is an excellent teacher.  We're all adults here, if we don't feel like we're getting value for money we're under no obligation to stay.

Just a quick note, we've gotten a number of complaints from people who have found the tone and suggestions in this and similar threads to be offensive. We have reviewed these threads and while the discussion has been heated, in fairness there have been no specific personal attacks.

However, we are concerned about the general tone and direction these threads have taken and we reserve the right to close a thread if we feel it has reached it's conclusion or the discussion has become repetitive/unnecessarily confrontational.

So with this in mind, we are leaving this thread open for now but would ask everyone to bear what we have said in mind when posting on the forums.

Tom, the fundamental point is that what is valued costs more. I made a comparison between the figure you gave for a salsa teacher and what a school teacher makes per hour as it was the first logical comparison I could think of. If it's an irrelevant comparison I would be glad to learn why. Because I asked for a figure that didn't include overheads (i.e.the professional fee element) and you suggested €50 it's a valid comparison, in my view.

Ciaran, taking one example in isolation doesnot invalidate the comparison. I know many teachers who charge much less than €50 for a grind. I agree fully that there's no obligation to stay but in an open society there is equally a right to express the opinion that the price is too high in some instances. It's interesting that you say that some people are outraged at paying €50 per hour for a private lesson (grind). Does that not also apply to salsa? Surely, it goes some way to proving that for some people at least €50 for a lesson is too steep?!

- Edited by Jak on 02/06/2010 at 13:07

Jak,

Do you teach? If not maybe you should, the way you are making 'suggestions' and 'comparisons' to me in your mind there seems to be loads of money to make as a Salsa teacher, so with that in mind why not start your own class/club night.

I'm not saying there is NO money to be made in it some people make a living from it, others do it as a passion/hobby to earn a little extra cash.

Your tone to me is one of ignorance, you quote figures and costs and have asked Tom to give you some ideas of costs and overheads.

Lets all hear what you think people should charge, lets here your business plan for your teaching and your club. Lets here about your experience.

If you are not going to provide this then SHUT UP

Hi Jak - you say that the hourly rate for a qualified teacher in the schools we send our kids to is €46.85, and you seem to be comparing this with an assumed hourly rate of €50+ for a salsa teacher based on the figure Tom mentioned above.  I'm open to correction if I've misinterpreted what you said.

If that is what you're saying though, I think you must also take into account the varying degrees of stability between the two jobs.  A permanent schoolteacher is guaranteed work every day of their working lives - a salsa teacher, or any dance teacher for that matter, has no such guarantee.  You could get forty people showing up to a class or you might get four - I've been to classes of both sizes myself, and I've heard of classes where nobody showed up at all.  I don't have any problem with people making money during the good times when they have to live with uncertainty like that on a daily basis.

Of course people have the right to express their displeasure if they feel that they're being overcharged for a service - I'm outraged by how much my local Centra charges for a sandwich - but I think that ultimately the most effective way for a consumer to express their displeasure is simply to take their business elsewhere.  There's no proof required that €50 for a private lesson is too steep for some, but equally there's no proof required that for others it's not - as long as people are willing to pay that money for a lesson then I see no fault in a teacher reaping the benefits.

i suggested €50 as the going rate for a private lesson based on my experience with teachers both national and international. i have no opinion about how much a teacher or salsa teacher or anyone else should get paid for an hour of work. this is determined either by their employer, or the people they are teaching. figure without overheads? how should i know? ask a salsa teacher for privates and they will give you a quote. 

well jak, this comparison is irrelevant because teachers are public sector workers (in general) employed by a state body (in general) to do a job relevant to their training and experience. they are in a pensionable job (in general) with benifits such as sick and holiday pay (in general) , and they dont have much in way of overheads or expenses in part of their normal every day work (in general). salsa teachers (in general) are ordinary folks who have a particular skill, in this case dance teaching ability. They do not (in general) receive any government aid, pension, holiday pays, benifits, a parking space, health insurance, or have someone to cover their costs. They are self employed either as a sole trader, or owner of a plc. So in fact, your comparisson could not have been more irrelevant if it tried. and if the teacher is teaching a grind, its up to them to charge whatever they want. if they charge €500 per hour and people pay it, good for them.

A more meaninguful comparisson, would perhaps would be to compare a martial arts teacher or club, this is set up in a similar way, has similar costs etc.

Jak, it is not me who believes salsa teachers should be paid €50 per hour for a private lesson or €10 for group class, it is economics - demand and supply...teachers charge what people are willing to pay.  I don't think salsa is like school, it's an evening hobby/passion people have, if you have to compare it then I would be thinking of things like pilates, yoga, aerobics, Tai Chi classes etc, they all have their hourly rate and market demand puts that at around €10, if economic conditions bring the price down as people are no longer willing to pay €10 per hour, then the teachers
will have to respond to this and reduce their prices to entice people to come to class, thats the way it is. 

Where do you dance normally and where did you learn to dance? All this talk of methodology and academia
makes salsa seem a very sterile experience, it is a dance, it is supposed to be fun and sexy!  The best
teachers I have been to aren't qualified dance teachers as far as I'm aware, but I value their opinion highly, whether through their classes, listening to them or watching them and I've learned an incredible amount from them.

I don't think you quite understood my last sentence from my first post, I was not being serious about the
idea of videoing.  And just to clarify my own educational experience was fine, Ive an honours degree from an internationally recognised university to vouch for that, I do not think you are in a position to suggest I have any bitterness or bad experiences from my schooling days.

- Edited by Sean on 02/06/2010 at 14:20

Ciaran and Tom, you assume that the rate I quoted was for a permanent and pensionable teacher: it wasn't!!! To ensure that it was comparable with salsa teachers I took the rate paid to a teacher on a casual, hourly basis (you can confirm this easily on the source website). So, all of the perks you assumed don't actually apply as these teachers don't have a permanent job, they don't have job security, they are not guaranteed work everyday of their working lives, they have only the same sick and holiday pay entitlements as any person paying PRSI. Of course there are teachers who are paid differently but I deliberately chose and gave the source at the time the rate of pay for a teacher that would most closely match  a salsa teacher. So, your rebuttal of the argument doesn't stand!

In fact, Tom, salsa teachers are more financially advantaged as they can claim their mileage and travel expenses as a legitimate business expense and offset this against their taxes thereby reducing the tax they pay. Schoolteachers who also have to drive to their place of work just like salsa teachers can't do this. Not only that but salsa teachers can go to a salsa congress, teach there, take a few classes if they want and then legitimately offset the cost of their travel (flights if it's overseas) and accommodation against their taxes. Your regular schoolteacher doesn't have this option! Salsa teachers can buy their shoes, salsa gear etc and again claim this as a business expense and thus offset their taxes. If a regular person wants to buy shoes or dancewear they pay the price and that's it!

Sean, I was being serious about the videoing! It's a great idea-there isn't a dance class in the US that doesn't have mirrors while in Ireland there's hardly any mirrors in dance classes (yes, there are some I'm sure but they are more the exception than the rule). If you want to improve it helps to see yourself!

Jak - the question you're posing here doesn't seem to be so much "how much would you be willing to pay for a class", but rather "how much is a salsa teacher entitled to earn".  I think, like anybody else, they're entitled to earn whatever it is they can get.  I watched a program recently that followed the crew of a trawler fishing in dangerous waters - at the end of the trip the takings from their haul worked out at an average of four euro an hour.  Do I feel that's right?  No.  Do I think that they deserve to earn less than me even though their work is physically, mentally and emotionally demanding, not to mention dangerous - no, I do not.  Am I going to apologise for the fact that the skills I posess happen to command a higher, more stable income?  No I am not.  You are completely within your rights to express your displeasure at paying what you believe are over-inflated prices, but the manner in which you're going about this - holding someone to account in a public forum for how much money they earn - is not, in my opinion, polite.  It's almost as if you begrudge these people the right to make money.

I guess its subjective, I just took it as "what price would you personally be prepared to pay per class", and gave my two cents worth, in and around a tenner I guess.  On that basis the topic is valid imo, its useful for salsa teachers and students alike to know what to expect from a class, and what constitutes value, what customers look for etc.

However topic being discussed has gone an unexpected direction and if it keeps on that path then the two sides of this argument are destined to clash and clash badly.   Maybe its time to just call time on this before it gets hard to share a dancefloor?  So far its just been a heated exchange of opinion on two perpendicular viewpoints?

Theres a lot of fun to be had messing about on this site, offering help or opinions, or dance links etc but maybe its gotten too serious of late?     What do you think guys, maybe put this one to bed for now?  Move on to more frivolous matters for a while?  Like tiger wrestling?   ( I've always wanted to try it but hear you need special shoes ?

Tc4n,H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 02/06/2010 at 20:54

a few points. its still a silly comparisson, there are much more realistic and relevant comparissons that could be made, as in my example a martial arts club. why on earth would comparing a salsa teacher to a casual secondary school teacher be a relevant comparisson? see what you have done there is compared a self employed person against a part time state employed person, of course the benefits are going to be different. just for laughs, id like to try something CAN ANYONE WHO HAS EVER OFFSET THEIR DANCE SHOES AGAINST THEIR TAXES PLEASE GIVE ME A "HELL YEAH"?

jak, are you for real? is this really how you think, or are you just trying to offend people, seriously, you have to be joking because i dont think a resonable person would say such a thing.

hugh, for me, salsa, and salsa discussions are usually fun, interesting, and sometimes there are differences in opinion, and it can get heated, thats natural. but this thread, much like some of the content of the last thread is downright insulting its has served no purpose other than to allow certain individuals to piss and moan and try to sound important by spouting a load of bs he/she/they cogged from whaterver web page and spewed back up here in order to form an inchoherent arguement about nothing. i am one of the most tolerant people i know, but  i will not stand for this the second unfounded, unprovoked attack on salsa teachers everywhere. making assumtions, comparissons, estimations, and judgements when he/she/they/it has or have NO experience in the business, asks all the questions but never answers any.

and ciaran, your point is very good.

jak, you accuse sean of being bitter, i put it to you that you are bitter about salsa teachers, perhaps you had a negative experience in you salsa class? who knows? is it fair for me to ask? no. was it fair for you to make such an insulting assumption about seans school days? no, and that was disgusting behaviour. jak, i ask you, call off your pointless assault on innocent individuals, if you have a grievance with someone, this is not the place to discuss it, talk to them.

are you proud of the things you are saying jak? and the insult you are causing? here is a challege, if you are not ashamed of your behavior, reveal yourself, who are you? what is your experience? why are you so bitter against salsa teachers?

as my handle suggests, my name is tom doherty, im based in athlone. people here know me, and i know them, but noone seems to know you. i am not ashamed of who i am, or what i have said. my only regret is that i have been once again drawn into a pointless, fruitless discussion with you, something i sincerely hope never happens again.

id love a round of tiger wrestling.

Jak

Still waiting on your business plan for your teaching and your club.

Will it be ready soon???

I agree with Hugh, definitely time to call end to this discussion for me as an unpalatable level of invective has now emerged and the discussion has veered away from the argument and towards the individual (me). I regret that anyone took offence from any of the genuinely held beliefs I shared. In my view, there needs to be a clear focus on what constitutes value for money for salsa students and if this thread did nothing else it served to highlight this point. I fully accept that engaging using this medium in a relatively small community and supporting a viewpoint that could be contrary to that of other users who may have a vested interest is certainly likely to engender criticism to be thrust in my direction. But just because my views are not popular does not mean that the arguments are not still valid and worthy of reasoned, impartial debate...to the objective reader I say, "make up your own mind". After all, the money you are spending you worked hard for.