Phew westman09!  That title will nark off as many people as humanly possible as quickly as possible! 

May I humbly recommend the title of the post be altered slightly to say  'What makes a great teacher' or 'What makes a lesson great' or somthing like that?

On that basis, I'd agree whole heartedly with 2.   1 & 3 are arguable, asking a teacher to reduce his rice bowl to improve the quality of his class may be noble, but in practice, I cant see that happening.   Music should be one of the cornerstones of the class, no disagreement from me there, the amount depends on what the teacher is trying to teach to some degree no?  

I have never taught Salsa, nor would I ever want to but I know that the intructor has the unenviable task to trying to keep everyone happy, very difficult when people prefer different teaching styles!   At a risk of generalising,  Men generally are visual creatures, needing very little verbal instruction.  Many women are audio-visual, so prefer when a move called out as well as implemented.  Men are from Mars...aparently...   My point is what works for you westman09 may not work for someone else.  Its very difficult to hit the happy medium, yet that said, if you spend more time listening than dancing, it obviously would be a strange + ultimately unrewarding class.

What I like:

i)      Simple yet descriptive instruction.  I remember having problems learning a certain wrist gesture fro turning until some called it 'pizza hand'  !   Now its unforgetable.

ii)      Fast partner rotation.  Its more fun that way.

iii)     At least one warm up / cool down, with variety there so you dont get bored doing the same warm up/cool down

A few pet peeves of mine if I may:

i)   Rudeness.   Especially to newbies.  Nothing narks me off more than that. Some people dont seem to realise, the more welcoming you are to newbies, the more likely they will stay in your class and the more loyal they will be, and the more free advertising you will get long term too.   The instructor may find teaching advanced to be more exciting, and newbies a chore, or what not, but simple cordiality costs nothing, yeilds benefits for everyone.   Very prevalent (but not exclusively ) in Dublin for some reason.

ii)   What I like to call Salsa Mysticism.   There are few things left  in the world that cannot now be explained in a scientific  way, if requested.    None of this, 'it is not something I can explain, you either have rythm or you dont' ' malarky.   Hate that stuff, it appears to just be a way of demeaning newbies, or at least slowing their progress.  Lame.

iii)  When the dance practise after the class leaves people in the cold, i.e. not dancing.   I was ( strangely ) rather shy when I started so it was something like 6 classe in before I was dragged up by a lady to the dancefloor, I was so glad she did, but that was 6 classes too late imo.  There are plenty of people who start that are just like that.    Practice sessions imo should be more like movie 'Fight Club':      

                 Rule 1.    Dont talk about learning salsa while you dance. 
                 Rule 2.    For the love of Jove, please dont talk about learning salsa while you dance.
                 Rule 3.    If its your first time at Salsa club, you HAVE to dance.  

MTC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 29/07/2009 at 11:24

Great post Hugh-exactly what i was hoping people would post. Thank you!

I love a class where:

1.  The instructor makes you laugh.

2.  Something that you struggled with before suddenly becomes simple and clear.

3.  You leave with a renewed appreciation of why it is you ever loved to dance.

I don't like a class where:

1.  The instructor talks too much and leaves you standing around for long periods of time doing nothing.

2.  The instructor doesn't explain what he or she is doing and doesn't watch to see where people might be having difficulties.

3.  Your partners make you feel like a langer if you can't pick up the routine.

I have only one annoyance from teachers in intermidiate level. They teach basic cross body lead ( step by step). People at this level are meant to be dancing for over a year (at least) and if you don't know it, stay to improvers and get good. This would immediately give more to the class with different cross body leads and another move maybe.

I find i can get through any class by breaking the class down like Hugh said with names... example: basic , left on top, cross body titanic, clock double her turn... yes handful to write but it's a simple sentence in the class. then then next time the teacher talks about the titanic move you can actually listen to get hands and feet right AND still remeber what all your moves were. Basically getting the most from your teacher.

Hey Ciaran, I like the candor of your last comment 3.

In my experience if you get the move wrong, many many many followers will make you feel 2 feet tall.  Get the move 100% right and with luck you will be rewarded with that most elusive of prizes:  the ladies smile.      

It is a sign of good character if the lady laughs off or ignores mistakes perhaps, but believe me, some people take dancing /improving at dancing  very very seriously, even at casual hobby stage.  So that kind of behaviour will happen, and it gets perhaps more common as you progress.   Every time it does happen, use it to make you more determined to learn, more alert etc.

We are all born to win, so if there was no price for failure what would push you to succeed ?

/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 18/08/2009 at 17:09

Hi Hugh,

Personally speaking, I find a friendly, encouraging atmosphere much more conducive to learning than a cold and demanding one.  And I think that most people in a dance class who make you feel two feet tall aren't doing so with an eye to improving your dancing through tough love - they're just not very nice people.  I accept that people may get frustrated at times with a slow learner, and that the occasional sharp kick up the hole can be an effective motivational tool, but I simply don't accept the pursuit of excellence as an excuse for perpetual, routine rudeness.  Gordon Ramsay isn't a rude, obnoxious, aggressive asshole because he cares so much about his cooking - he's just an asshole who cares about cooking.

Luckily, almost all of the people I've met through dancing have been absolutely lovely.

Cheers,

Ciarán

HI Ciarán,

Likewise met a lot of lovely people through Salsa. 

In regard to above though, I never said they are trying to improve your dancing.    The job of the leader is a hard one requiring a certain amount of verb-armor.   I'm not saying there are no rude salceros - there are, obviously - but for them there is no excuse - ever.   Its tough, but its also kinda cool. 

From the follower point of view I think there can be several factors in play.  Perhaps they've been waiting 5 minutes for the chance to practice.  Imagine how frustrating it is then to have the move fluffed?     Maybe you've unwittingly stretched or hurt the lady?  Maybe its a sign that the lady is bored and should have moved up a level ages ago?  Maybe they are just having a bad day?   

Its difficult to know, but if the behaviour is perpetual or quite obviously waaaay ott then grand, I agree :  assign to the 'not nice people'' folder in your head and vote with your feet + time on the dancefloor.

Just to differentiate:  Rudeness <not_equal> constructive criticism.   One of the hardest things I find these days is to get any level of constructive criticism.  I want to know when I'm doing something wrong, so I can correct it, improve it, get it 110% right.    Hard to get cos some Salceras think that by doing so they will appear to be rude!

Constructive criticism in a class = good, ALWAYS good.  Destructive criticism can also be good if you choose make it so.

Anywho, just saying that when rudeness occurs you can use it, to steel yourself and keep yourself motivated.   If Gordon Ramsay chewed you out over your cooking, wouldn't you use this criticism to your advantage?  Who cares if Gordon is nice or not? 

Tc4n/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 24/08/2009 at 09:32

Hugh,

I agree with everything you say.  Which is a shame, cos now I've got nothing to say.  Although I would like to say that I'd get a huge kick out of seeing someone wallop Gordon Ramsay with a saucepan.

Ciarán

Hi guys, I'm new to the site, but i gotta congratulate westman 09 on such a choice for a thread.....I gotta admit, I couldnot have thought of a better one! Too bad it's ussualy so tabu and nobody wants to talk about it.

If you don't mind, I'm gonna give u my view on the matter

First off, let's admit it: salsa courses are done partialy for money, otherwise it would be "salsa practices" and people will have2pay just to rent the venue. One cannot disregard that a teaher has to view in a great measure (possibly greater) his financial intrests (and thus attendance) over the "teaching factor" of his class. And I think it's clear to most people that these two counter themeselves.

But that's a small......really really small inconvenince that people use to hide the real fact: most people don't like to hear that they need2learn. A lot of these people don't even come to classes2learn, but rather to know that they can dance and to just see new "shapes". And one cannot blame them....afterall, I think everybody agrees that people come to salsa to feel good. As far as the "being offended by someone else's regard", my view is that this a total exageration: people are easily frustrated by what they find hard2do, so it's even worse if someone says something about it. That doesn't mean that the criticism is not true, or that you should be easily offended by it. And I think that what really happens, people get very easily offended by comments. I think one neednot be, because on most ocasions the offence (if any) was not intended and (like Hugh1a said before me) one should concentrate on the message, rather than the carrier. If the postman comes at you door and is rude to you....does that mean you won't open the letter? C'MON!

I see a lot of people said too much talk is not good. I think that's really a bad attitude, and i will try to state my case. As a good teacher of mine said, in dancing "it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it". If you don't believe me, watch a good tango couple....it'll give you shivers up your spine because of its beauty, yet tango dancers do almost the same "moves" that salsa dancers do, just in a diffrent manner and in a diffrent aproach.

When you go to a dance class (any, not just salsa) don't try to ask yourself "can i do this move?". ofcourse everybody can.....who here can say they can't walk (dance steps) or turn around (spins) or lift the hands up and down (hand shines) or hold a girl in his arms/let yourself by held by a guy (wraps), etc....?

But can you do it to make it look easy, can you so it to match the tempo, can you do it to match the melodic line? can you do it (for the follows) to enhance the feminity of your body, to make yourself look gentle and frail, yet strong at the same time, and most importantly, can you make your partner feel like you can be lead into any kond of move? can you be assertive, so full of self confidence that your partner feels so safe she could close her eyes, can you be manly and yet gentle on your partner, lead but also listen to the music to match the couples' moves with the lyrics of the song, can you make your partner smile while thinking " OOO, that felt nice, didn't even know i could do that!"

I think that when one comes to a dance class one should look at it as shoping in IKEA (sorry4da publicity).....you don't buy the furniture, you buy the tools and the knowledge to construct it - one doesn't learn a move, one learns how to do a move.

I could say a lot more, but I don't want to bore anyone2death, thank you for reading this, hope you didn't find it a waste of time (if i made spelling/grammar errors, i'm sorry, but i'm not a native english speaker). In the end, I'll suggest a small exercise to even test what i have said:

Try to understand and do correctly an open break with a partner, feel her/your momentum going and don't stop it. Then you'll see how easy it is to go into a spin and why advanced dancers need only the minimal contact to spin their partners after a good break/for the lasies-if you do it properly, you'll see how important it is (and how comfortable it gets) if you take small steps!

Twotimes, Sounds like he's doing some serious salsa.

" OOO, that felt nice, didn't even know i could do that!" ...

is much better than I get

" OOO, my foot!"       

Good read Thanks

One thing that I find missing from many classes is skill building exercises. Of course after several weeks of learning patterns you will learn how to lead or follow similar patterns but there does not seem to be enough emphasis or focus on technique.

For me a great class is one that teaches skills and uses partnerwork and/or footwork as a means of putting these concepts into practice. "Give a man a fish; feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; feed him for a lifetime".

I see that a common complaint among people here is that teachers can talk too much, I agree if a teacher is talking to promote classes or events then it is a waste of your time, but there is a lot to be said for listening about concepts, history of the dance and musicality, this provides a more well-rounded dance education and not one that is solely based on "this week's move".

- Edited by Laura on 19/09/2009 at 15:23

concepts, check!
musicality, check!

history?      hmmm, do I really need to know that why bachata was unpopular in the country it ( probably ) originated in or why mambo became salsa, or why/how we came to dance in line for LA/NY styles?    How does that help me to be better on the dancefloor?   I think if you have an academic frame of mind then this information is easily gleaned, but not very useful to be given in a dance class.

In regard to talking to much, to continue the fishing metaphor:  To teach a man to fish in an hour, you wouldnt tell him how to hold a rod for 20 mins, and spend 40 minutes talking about fishing?   Surely you'd tell him the fishing concepts in 20 minutes then devote the rest of the time + scope + practice into developing his own style of fishing? 

/H.

I'll have to disagree with you there, for example, if you are taking an On2 class, it is useful to know that you are dancing something that has strong ties to jazz, this affects the timefeel and can help you understand the flow and musical interpretation of that particular dance style. I've never come across a class in which the teacher spends 40 mins+ talking, there has to be a balance between "theory" and pratical elements. People seem to think they're being cheated unless they're in constant motion during a class...idgi :/

I've never come across a class in which the teacher spends 40 mins+ talking...

Laura

If only I could name names of the teachers who are really poor, talk too much, don't give feedback, don't vary the learning exercises, ignore the music, avoid any attempt at interpretation, avoid originality, don't understand/explain about movement, teach a pattern week in week out...

If all you are eating is fish then you will never know how good steak tastes...

While I agree that there are many teachers who unfortunately fall into the above category, I highly doubt any of them talk for 40 mins..lol Please send me a PM with the name of the teacher who does this so I can go check that out for the laugh

Once when I was a bit younger one of my master`s told me when I complained to him about the quality of the teachers of some schools: "anyone is a Teacher who has students". It means (I guess) if somebody recognizes another person as a teacher he or she is a teacher; it doesn`t matter what teaching methods and skills he/she has. Teacher is who has students and all of us has a chance to choose another school or teacher. Respect.

Hey New York Salsa,

You are absolutely right ..

No teacher in the world can please every  student in the classes..

because every student has different needs..

- Edited by sexymario on 20/09/2009 at 19:50

Sexymario, I respectfully disagree with your view that every student in a class cannot be pleased. You say that every student has different needs and fundamentally I agree but for me this is not justification for apathy and the view you espouse. Rather, if you read my posts in other threads I advocate individualising the lessons, meeting students' different needs by adopting a range of learning styles with clearly defined learning targets that are communicated to the student in advance and where during the lesson these are continuously reinforced and feedback received by students on how to improve. So, in stead of the laissez-faire, "we'll hit the middle ground" attitude let's a get a "we'll have everyone going home happy and better dancers" attitude going. Set high standards, the highest imaginable and you will earn respect from your students.

Come now, we were speaking metaphorically no?   40mins was poetic license, lets say 30 minutes - I havent seen many classes and teachers talk that much, but I've seen a few, and when this happens I tend to get very bored and take a stroll or two until the dance practice / next class comes on. 

In regard to the other posts: 

NYS:  sounds like your teacher was a student of Japanese philosophy     

sexy mario / westman09, have we gone off topic?  The focus is on just giving opinions on what makes a good class / bad class, not telling / instructing people how to teach no?    Like every student every teacher has his own style, and therefore logically their own needs too. The thread is just giving opinons on what makes / breaks a class - this is good feedback for anyone wanting to improve their class no?

Feedback can be worth money, to the right people, prepared to take it on board.    Who was it that said:  "Happy is he who hears his detractions, and can put them to mending"? 

MTC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 22/09/2009 at 15:48