Sounds right to me - classes I've been to where the warm-up actually incorporates any stretching have been well in the minority.  So long as the stretches are gentle (most classes wouldn't get you warm enough to get into any deep stretches) I think it'd be a great help.

well i dont take classes in ireland normally, i just teach them, so i dont know what the done thing is. whenever i teach, my warm up consists of a full set of body isolation exercises, gentle stretching exercises, including the back, the legs, the knees, and the feet. many teachers are not qualified fitness instructors (myself included) so we have to be careful about what we ask people to do. but gentle well explained light stretches are ok. it is as important for the teacher as it is for the students. i think its a good idea, but i would, because ive been doing it for a long time

While raising body temperature gradually is generally advisable i.e. a light cardiovascular warm-up it is physiologically unimportant for the average individual to perform range of motion stretches in advance of exercise and it does not prevent injury to any degree that a cardio warm-up alone would not also achieve (in a salsa class of average adult beginners the only person likely to experience a medically significant benefit from pre-exercise stretching is the teacher). There is significant medical evidence to suggest that pre-exercise stretching is actually harmful. In actual fact, one of the most definitive studies in this area showed that pre-exercise stretching reduces muscle strength endurance by up to 30% if the muscle is not already at full potential.

However, what is more beneficial is post-exercise warm-down and gentle stretching as during exercise the muscle fibres that are recruited when moving shorten due to the stretching and torsional stresses they experience. A post-exercise warm down can significantly reduces the risk of muscular injuries, helps to improve recovery time and maintain flexibility and balance. However, much of this is activity specific and the stretches that are done need to be appropriate to that activity. One of the areas that would benefit from a focus by those leading stretching is that of proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation stretching.

Unfortunately, the old-fashioned idea of stretching before exercise still flies with people who have no medical training or background in exercise physiology. I cringe when I see people participating in muscle stretches prior to salsa. They are, in fact, potentially doing damage to themselves! Yes, this goes against the perceived "common wisdom" but it's what the facts are! So, please if you're not trained in physiology don't use what you regard as your common sense to lead people into stretching routines. If they want to stretch tell them to do so at home before them come to salsa or to do a warm up themselves before the class starts.

If you're interested in this area you could do worse than to start you reading with this article: Nelson, Arnold G., Joke Kokkonen, and David A. Arnall. "Acute Muscle Stretching Inhibits Muscle Strength Endurance Performance." Journal Of Strength And Conditioning Research / National Strength & Conditioning Association 19.2(2005): 338-343.

PS. I had to edit this to say that if you want to prevent back injuries then the key is to stabilise the back by developing the core muscles(and adopt good posture). I can't comment on Hugh's experience with women with dodgy backs but it is unlikely that salsa as a dance is directly the causative factor. What is far more likely is that these women wear high heels when dancing. This changes the natural alignment of their legs (which naturally bear the bodyweight) and pelvis and thus you have more of their bodyweight acting through their lower back. What is also significant is that wearing high heels also places greater stress on the legs and reduces limb flexibility and increases fatigue which reduces reaction time and the ability to respond and counter when a stress is applied. All in all, the "equipment" is most likely at fault.

- Edited by Jak on 03/07/2010 at 16:44

Interesting article Jak, Ive read some simliar research over the course of my studies (anatomy and physiology) and years of fitness and weight training. I have heard and read many conflicting stories. What you have posted is now the truth. But I think what myself and Hugh were talking about (correct me if im wrong hugh) is not a series of static or balistic muscular stretches to lengthen the muscles and loosen the joints like the pre match streches we used to see the GAA players use, more (and i appologise for using the term "stretching" is a common colloquialism for "warm up" in these parts) range of movement exercises to stimulate blood flow to the working muscles before putting them to use. And also body isloation exercises to raise awareness and coordination.

cheers for the research article.

I just wouldn't like Jak's post to end up sounding like "doing warm-up is bad for you." (I am sure he didn't mean it like that.) Obviously the composition of a warm-up session depends on who is attending it and how the body is going to be used after that. Naturally, if it is for complete beginners that are only going to step from one foot to the other, they won't benefit much directly from a stretching exercise. However, I believe at least a short warm-up session can be beneficial. Even just for the purpose of releasing endorphines from faster movement to bring a more enjoyable mindset for when the class goes a bit 'slower' for beginners and not everything works straight away. Then, purpose of a warm-up session is not just stretching. Developing some body flexibility, body isolation and coordination takes a while, so the earlier one starts, the better (provided the exercises are adequate to the level of the attendees).

I have attended some 'dangerous' warm-ups myself, where the teacher would not pay attention to preparing the muscles for stretching and would go straight into 'hard' stretching. Then I simply would not do that when I feel the muscles are getting over-stretched without being ready for it; or just pause, prepare the muscles for the stretching just myself and only then continue following the class/workshop warm-up.

In the end it is always up to the individual dancer what they want to do, however the teacher - as he/she is the one in the know - should provide some guidance on how to get ready for the content of the class and how to improve flexibility, body isolation, coordination, etc. in their dancing for those who want to do that.

To summarise: the left/right/forward bends suggested by Hugh will not help to prevent back injuries and are in fact a bad idea. What will help is for the ladies to not wear high heels.

well jak, that depends on wether these bends are designed to take the muscles through their range or movement, or to stretch them.

is the information above is from a study done on runners, where by the performance output of the muscles was measured relative to athelets who had not stretched. it looks familiar to me.

movements designed to take muscles through their range of movement and increase blood to the area to warm it up are very beneficial. this is infact how a muscle is "warmed up".

so "to summarise", depending on how they are done, bends can indeed help prevent injury.

i dont think the ladies are going to give up their heels anytime soon jak.

Yeah, I've heard the 'stretching is bad' line before and certainly it doesnt seem like sound advice.

Logically, given two people of equal strength and other attibutes, long term the more flexible one is the less likely to be injured, to say otherwise would be to negate flexiblity as a positive attribute ( I'd be interested to find the doctor who says that ), most injuries happen in the common range of motion, but not all, and certainly Salsa has moves that require both strength and flexibilty to do, making flexibility an active requirement to avoid injury afaics.

There are two type of stretching - prolonged static, and gentle, meaured.  The former is probably where this study seems to concentrate, I doubt the latter got a look in   

In regard to heels, I seem to recall a body isolation class recently , where "heels are good" was the mantra    Funny the difference in opinion. 

- Edited by Hugh1a on 05/07/2010 at 13:01

Hugh, my line is not that stretching is bad! It is that pre-exercise stretching has for the general salsa dancer limited or no effect in injury prevention and that any benefit accrues from mainly post-exercise stretching. In my world there are three types of range of motion exercies: passive, active, and active assists(some also say there's self range). To be perfectly honest, I think that the range of motion term is not helpful to the discussion. Stretching is stretching! The heels are bad line is not an opinion...it's fact! Anyone who argues otherwise has no medical training whatsoever. Reality is that ladies won't want to stop wearing heels. Which is why the focus should really be on core conditioning. Unfortunately, most salsa classes focus on stretching the limbs and extremities. I have, horror of horrors, seen salsa "teachers" get students to perform some of the most dangerous neck rolls as part of a warm up. If this thread helps in any way I would urge salsa teachers to use stretches at the end of the lesson rather than the beginning, to get students to sign a medical declaration form (so that you are awareif they have any condition-assuming that they will take care of themselves is not a defence against your negligence nor is ignorance of any condition they may have-once you take a class and where there has been exchange of consideration you are required to have the expert knowledge to deal with such eventualities.

Hmmm, ok then, got the wrong end of the stick on that one - stretching at the end of a class instead of the start?   Would still be beneficial to people imo  - though personally I found when used a stretching machine at the end of a run for example, while it would feel fantastic, I had a tendency to overstretch, simply as the muscles seemed respond so well

I dont know about medical training but I do know the argument for heels stems from the suppostion that the centre of balance is a little forward ( tai-chi / alexander tech anyone? ), so when one wears heels when Salsa dancing it does push you a little forward, making it easier to find the centre of balance.    

In regard to the neck rolls right at the start, yeah I've seen that too, but I just dont do it, scrunching the nape of the neck without a warmup ?  Thats just nuts

Hugh, that's cool! The issues with heels are numerous: they stretch the muscles running along the back of the leg, holding them in a stretched position without release. This results in the muscles losing contractile flexibility and increases muscle fatigue (as well as developing some rather unfeminine legs over time). Second, less of the foot is in contact with the ground (yup, great for spinning) but from a stability viewpoint this reduces the overall stability. Third, there is increased pressure acting through the hip, knee and ankle joints because they are no longer in a neutral position and are under tension. Fourth, there is increased stretch on the plantar fascia resulting in the traditional sore feet and possible later development of postman's foot (plantar fasciitis). Fifth, the centre of gravity is moved forward as you suggest and this is bad because the body compensates by trying to return to a neutral position. The two most common ways of doing this is to arch the lower back or to alter the position of the head. The arching of the back being where the back problems begin. I'd be curious to see if women experience any stiff necks over time as a result of prolonged dancing. Of course, the height of the heel is a significant variable in the overall equation as is the woman's morphological makeup. BTW they say that experience is a great teacher so, Hugh, try standing on your toes and feel where your centre moves, then try arching your back or throwiing your head back/forwards to get a sense of what the heels are like, also try moving on your toes and you'll get the feeling quite quickly.

streching is stretching, indeed.range of motion does not simply imply stretching. it involves taking the joints through their... you guessed it, normal range of motion. typically, specific active warm ups involve mimmicking the activity that is about to take place. stimulating the bloodflow to the muscles, and warming them up, thereby reducing the likelyhood of injury FACT. there is a difference between ROM exercises, and stretching exercises. they are related, ie one can increase ones ROM through stretching, but i dont think its fair to dismiss the term as not useful to the discussion. what are you suggesting people do to warm up pre dancing jak? hot baths?

as for the shoes issue. women have known for many years that high heels are bad for their bodies. but it hasnt stopped them wearing them. plus they look great you seem to know something about the muscles and musculoskeletal conditions, do you have a background in anatomy and physiology yourself?

hugh, im sure you can find some nice heels in your size if you want to try out jaks theory for real

Yeah! Who wants to see Hugh on high heels!? ))

I think people are making a LOT of assumptions here:  for all you know I may have the legs for it!        Last time I wore shorts dancing was the Cork Congress last year, there were women in awe of them ( they were even averting their gaze at times )    

On topic:  Most ladies wear sensible shoes for classes dont they?  I would say its more likely that back damage occurs due to the man being too forceful or a move has too much twisting on a back that isnt warm enough to support that level of move.   I guess going to nights out wearing heels all night wont help much either, but is it possible that its a catalyst as opposed to a root cause?

- Edited by Hugh1a on 06/07/2010 at 10:29

Man’s hairy legs on high heels … that’s something I wouldn’t really need to see! )

However, shoes with high heels look good to me on ladies. The heels don’t need to be very high - it’s about the type of shoe and shape of it, not about very high heels. Proper dance shoes or ‘dance trainers’ designed for dancing also look fine and may be better for longer dancing. Wearing high heels for very long time would not be very comfortable but shoes with very low sole and no shock absorption for walking on concrete are not good either and how many of them you can see on the streets… Shoes with really soft inner sole and no support for the foot cause damage to the foot over longer period of time walking in them and they are normally sold and worn …

On the other note, some men may be too forceful. That would be more of a question for ladies to ask.

‘Man being too forceful’ can be a cause of a problem for lady. I think the best reaction from a more advanced lady to this would be to check the space, where she’d be moving for any obstacles and react adequately to what she’s got from the lead. That way the guy could see directly how strong signal he gave her.

‘Man being too forceful’ can also be result of a problem the lady has caused. For instance if she is too slow in reacting or moving herself, then the man may need to use more power than normally necessary.

More force than necessary may also be result of lack of good connection in dancers. Then the guy may have to ‘shout’ by the lead

Sheesh everyones a critc   

mdancer, how would you rate the return ( in some circles ) to 'barefoot' shoes?  e.g. Fivefingers or Jingas? , the idea that normal shoes cushion the feet way too much, so removes the shock absorbtion altogether!   Jingas arent perfect , but I've heard good things about five-fingers   

I think you have a good point about the lady amost causing the problem of the man being forceful, it can be frustrating for the guy who wants to 'get the move right' and I'm guilty myself of over-trying sometimes!   But that said, imo, its still the guys fault, its not his job to ensure the move goes perfectly is it?  Its a partnership, so I guess he should be content to let the move fail in the event of slow reaction, far better that than encouraging injury yes?

- Edited by Hugh1a on 06/07/2010 at 15:52

All very chivalrous you guys discussing ladies welfare-it would be nice to hear from a greater number of ladies-come on girls! You have a bunch of men talking about your backs and your shoes..what's your views?

Tumbleweed blows gently across the site ....... 

- Edited by Mark on 09/07/2010 at 17:11

In my experience high heels can worsen a pre-existing back problem, but I doubt moderate use of high heels would be the sole (no pun intended!) cause of back problems or injury.  If you wore 4” heels as your regular footwear it could be a different story.  (High heels can also be very hard on your feet.)

I think the majority of salseras wear a heel that’s not too high- maybe 1.5” to 2.5”.  In my opinion it’d be very unlikely that women would stop wearing high heels when dancing, they do make you feel wonderful- even when you’re just starting out…

- Edited by Eve on 10/07/2010 at 20:52

I'm not sure I understand that I understand the point Jak is making about the benefits of stretching. Jak, are you saying that:

a) The best way to prepare yourself for strenuous exercise is just start (and then do some gentle stretching as a cool-down afterwards)? or

b) Most Salsa classes aren't so strenuous that stretching beforehand will make any difference?

I would find a) pretty hard to believe, but I could see some truth in b) - most Salsa classes take a gradual pace for the students, with time out to break things down, watch the teacher demonstrate, swap partners etc, so most of the time they act as their own warm up.

Where I particularly notice the disadvantages of not warming up properly, is where I go to a Salsa club, and jump straight into the social dancing without having done a class beforehand. I've done this lots of times, and experienced lots of aches, pains and mobility restrictions - during the dancing, rather than the next day - that I don't get when I've been warmed up by a class beforehand.

So I think that the warm up at the start of the classes is good, to get people into the habit of it for all their dancing (whether or not it makes much difference in the class itself).