In the most polite possible way I would like to disagree with your opinion as I feel that it does not fully reflect the Dublin salsa scene.

Kindest possible Regards

H

Censored!

- Edited by Horus on 13/12/2008 at 08:31

- Edited by Horus on 13/12/2008 at 08:37

I agree that Eddie Torres is THE dancer, but since I am a bloke I wouldn't dance with him

Much better off with Maria

Jak, since you are so critical with the Dublin salsa scene, can you tell us where you dance, so we can compare ?

Ciao from Milano

For clarification, the points I raised are:

1. The teaching methodologies used were extremely traditional and lessons would have benefitted from a more active approach to student learning and participation. This is based on my observation of the lessons and participation in a number. In a significant number of classes there was little opportunity created for individual assistance to be given by the teacher - the lesson proceeded with the teacher at the centre giving instructions. Therefore there was little time, and usually no opportunity, for individual experimentation and adaptation.

2. Many lessons were taught using practically no music - anathema to modern dance teaching methodology. The evidence for this is based on the lessons that I visited. My notes tell me that the majority of lessons consisted of teacher talk and demonstration with group practice and the use of music rarely during the lesson.

3. There is little emphasis on musicality and interpretation. The evidence for this is that lessons use a "follow the teacher" approach.

4. A few teachers only focus on posture and styling (other than the most cursory of passing comments). This is not a condemnation of all teachers - some do focus on posture and styling and this is commendable where it occurs.

Hola Matador, - it is not about being competitive or comparative - the point that I am making is that real learning has happened when the students have the ability to express themselves in an independent and creative manner that is consistent with the fundamentals of the dance and the music. I have similar points to make about teachers in many cities. The unfortunate thing about teaching dance is that few dance "teachers" have any training in how to teach. Most develop a teaching style that is reflective of what they themselves have experienced and thus you have a continuation of traditional dance teaching methods that are less than optimal.

OK Jak...lets have a bet. you tell me who teaches classes your way and I’ll go...If those points are not met you will give me double my money back. I know I can’t loose as the kind of class you describe is either 1on1 or science fiction....

On your points

1) Classes are taught that way for a reason. Not enough time for individual assistance. you only have enough time to correct ppl who are doing it completely wrong.

2) Lessons are thought "on count" as are most DANCE classes for a very simple reason. You show the move, do it on count and then do it to music. Unless you are talking about fitness classes or special programs like Nike Rock Star which are taught from beginning to end to music, but that is a completely different methodology to teaching dance classes.

3) Hmmm I can't agree. Even if you have the follow the teacher approach you are still encouraged to add your own styling. You usually go to workshops for musicality and interpretations.

 

For a class to be good it needs to be CLEAR. All the other aspects like interpretation, musicality and styling  you can add yourself individually. I go to classes to learn certain new moves which I then interpret and use in my own way.

Jak -

do you have any experience teaching any sort of large group classes

do you think that doing a course makes you a good teacher??

Hi Jak,

I'd be interested to hear how you would like to see the classes run instead? I'm particularly interested to know if you've had any classes with any teachers that you thought were done "the right way"?

Hi Mike, thanks for your reply. I want to avoid the idea that there is one "right way" to teach dance - there are many ways of teaching that are effective. What would have made the lessons I experienced/observed better would have been:

1. More use of music during the lessons - students should see how fundamental movements (supported by appropriate posture(s)) combine to create more involved patterns that are appropriate to the music being played - the music needs to become the central focus for dance lessons otherwise they are simply exercise classes with synchronised movement

2. Less teacher talk and less teacher-led activities resulting in more opportunities for students to practice, interpret and experiment and more time for the teacher to circulate among the students and provide individual help

3. An emphasis on innovation, interpretation and musicality in dancing - in simple terms, some pieces of music suit certain types of moves/styles and vice versa - students need to become familiar with this and need to be encouarged to develop this area

4. Opportunities for feedback from students to their partners and/or to the group. In essence, this is about how students know that they have been successful - for many beginner/intermediate dancers success equals finishing the pattern in the "correct position" within the allotted number of bars. Students should be encouraged to comment on each other's dancing (Yes, this would be a completely new development for so many and would probably meet resistance initially from some quarters but it would only work following modelling by the teacher as to what reflective comment involves)

5. There should be an annual teacher forum wherein teachers should explore and share strategies that work well when teaching lessons

6. Dance teachers should seek formal training and accreditation from recognised bodies

7. Dance teachers should all study several styles of dance in addition to salsa to help develop an appreciation of the different styles and different methods of teaching dance

I hope these points are what you wanted to know - let me know if you want me to exapand further on any.

OK...it all boils down to what ppl expect....

I think the things you expect will be found when you go to a salsa congress, though havent seen too much evidence of that kind of teaching...unless its a specified body-movement/salsa music workshop.

Most ppl expect to learn a "routine" which they can later practice and use in their own time/way...Personally I expect to learn some new moves... its not a music class for me...

Regards

Hey Jak,

I do understand where you're coming from.. However..

I think the thing is you're talking about a perfect world in some ways when we don't live in a perfect world. I can't speak for all classes run but here's my experience of classes so far.

First off any classes I have gone to have been an hour in duration and have mostly played three songs throughout the class. That's about 20 minutes of the class right there so you've got 40 minutes left. That's not a huge amount of time to properly break down and teach a move as well as give the sort of personal time you're talking about in a class with 40+ dancers.

Secondly you're obviously someone who has a passion for salsa and wants to improve themselves as much as possible which is great, but the majority of people going to salsa classes are primarily looking for the social aspect of the dance classes. Most of the classes I've been at have needed microphones to be heard over all the people chatting. This isn't to say that they aren't learning anything, they're just learning it at a more "sedate" pace. This also plays into what you are saying about getting people to give each other feedback. Every class I have ever gone to has had teachers saying "Ladies, if he doesn't lead you then don't do the move, Men if she's leading herself stop her" but the fact is that most people don't feel comfortable doing that. To my mind class is somewhere that you are given the tools and the club after is where you practice using the tools properly.

Finally if you are looking for that more intense teaching then they are available, you just have to go out and find them. For example on Thursday in the Garda club there is an advanced class that you have to demonstrate that you are capable of the level required by the class to take part and you can't "just join in". This means that this class is able to focus more on the sort of details you are taking about because the teacher knows they don't need to break down all the little bits of the steps. Hilary also runs occasional weekend workshops for intermediate and improver level dancers that have a number of teachers at them ready to offer inidivdual assistance during the class. People like Vanessa have run musicallity classes and then there are congresses like Salsa School (full disclosure in case you don't know, myself and Mark started salsa school) where the whole focus of the weekend is on improving the technique and ability of dancers running technique, styling and musicality classes (which by the way we often find people who talk about wanting more technique classes skip to do a class teaching another move..).

The only other point I really want to make is in relation to teacher forums and accreditation. An annual teacher forum would probably be a good thing if everyone was willing to get involved and I'd certainly be happy to provide space and time for a forum like that at Salsa school which would probably be the most Neutral location for that sort of thing. Accreditation wise I know that a large number of teachers all over the country have gotten the UKA Accreditation and all of the teachers I know spend lots of time throughout the year going to salsa events around the world so they can keep up with what's going on around the world and bring the best of it back home to their students!

Totally agree with the above!! Nothin to add.... Oh I wish it were a perfect world ;-)

I agree Horus, oh to have a perfect world.

I appreciate the points Jak made above, however, having taught for a number of years now, I can only go by the adage "you cant please all of the people all of the time". We continuously look for feedback and try to adapt classes to suit what the people want. Much as I would love to take many right back to basic technique, that is not what people want and they are paying for the class. I found that people primarily come out on a cold winters night to have “fun”, meet their friends, make new friends and, of course, learn a bit of salsa. There are of course the “addicts” among us and for that there are workshops and congresses. I have seen various forms of teaching tried over the years only to see them revert back to the old tried and tested format.

I have quite a few years experience in  teaching different group classes and couldn't agree more... If you have 90% happy ppl in your class then that is a success.... Someone will always fall into the  10% ;-) of the unsatisfied customers of course... but if you make the class the way the 10% wants...you risk making the 90% unhappy and that is not good for participants and your busisness....

That is why you have choice... or ultimately forget about goin to classes if you cant find the ones you like...

Well said Mike,

Jak, some good points too but like Mike&Mark say most peeps are there to enjoy themselves and socialize....and I wouldn't want to see that change.

Most annoying fact for me is Most dancers I talk to don’t own a single Latin record....wouldn't support the musicians and their family's who give us this incredible music...meanwhile their forking out for Pink's 'So What'...possibly the worst song in recording history! . . .think i may be off topic again, oops!

JoeyRamone

There's a fundamental point that I haven't succeeded in getting across clearly enough: what I have advocated would not make classess less fun and more formal and "starchy" and I'm disappointed that I did not succeed in getting that across.

The point is that the manner in which the learning is mediated determines the engagement level and the consequent fun that people experience: that's a personal attribute of the teacher. We have all experienced education that was first class but boring as can be and no fun and the opposite also.

I appreciate that most people go to salsa classes for fun and for the social aspect - they are the main cohort I would target with the adaptations I have suggested.

Mike - your reply centres on the teacher i.e. breaking down the move and giving individual attention. I would say: teach less, and students learn more. Try Googling it. It's a fundamental shift in the education paradigm - teaching a move is about rote learning. The level of higher order skills development is very limited in this type of teaching. In contrast to the type of salsa teaching I've seen, a trained dancer with one to two years of dancing should in most codes be able to replicate a 3 minute routine after having seen it once. That's because they have a dance IQ and developed kinesthetic intelligence to break down complex sequences into simpler blocks of movement. That needs to happen more in the lessons I visited.

I don't mean to be critical Mike but the type of feedback you referred to is only a very small part of what I mean. The teacher needs to model how to give feedback by saying "When I do this move well I can feel that my arm is bent.... I can see that my partner is always in front of me... I can hear the trumpet just as I.... When I do the move really well I can feel the weight move from.... as the....plays.... Now, as you dance the move watch to see what your partner does well and after they have completed the move tell him/her what they did well. Also,  tell him/her why you thought they did it well." feedback needs to be constructive not critical and it needs to be focused on specific points with evidence to back it up. Students need to be taught how to develop these skills. You remember in school how it was always easy to get the maths questions right cos they were so alike yet when you came to one that was a different kind of question so many kids ran into problems? Well, it's like that here: very few teachers in school ever modelled how to think. They modelled how to do, how to do the questions, how to get the right answer i.e. in dance terms end up in the right spot at the right time. What we need is to help develop independent dancers who can innovate and improvise.

I'm not looking for more "intense" teaching - in fact what I am suggesting is that teachers should avoid intensity in their teaching styles - it's off putting for the average dancer.

I experienced the microphone phenomenon and quite apart from lack of volume awareness on the part of a small number of teachers I really couldn't believe what I was seeing or hearing. I've worked with groups of people from one-to-one situations to gatherings as large as 3,000 and never needed a microphone. If the issue is that people are speaking while the teacher wants to speak then there's something fundamentally wrong  as the students are disengaged perhaps because the class is boring. I've never known anyone to want to miss something that they found interesting and enjoyable. The answer shouldn't be for the teacher to shout louder. If the teaching is stimulating enough and if the teacher is engaging then there's no need for a microphone as the students don't want to miss a word. Also, I've seen the microphone used in situations where the teacher was up on a stage - there needs to be proximity and immediacy and the physical environment should be conducive to this. The stage idea is fine on one level but it's not fine on the basis that it allows a 2-perspective view only unlike a circular same level arrangement. Also, it does not enable good connection between the teacher and the students which is essential to developing rapport. Let's drop the microphones and think about why people don't want to listen to the teacher.

I accept fully that various teachers do various things vis a vis musicality and the other points I made but what I'm saying is that EVERY class should include elements of these. Music is the basis for dance as is movement and the fundamentals need to be at the core of the learning experience.

And yes I've seen the points I'm suggesting in action in Ireland at a dance class - I've refrained from naming names throughout my posts but the very good teaching that I saw was done by a couple who I think are new to teaching dance with no formal training - I can only imagine how good they would be with training. I spoke to some participants after the classes and they said it was more fun than they had at any previous classes with different teachers.

Also, I did ask various people at three lessons I visited in Dublin (2 had the same teacher) if they were having as much fun as they would like and would they like more music played and it was a resounding no to the first (though they were enjoying the class in a passable kind of way) and a yes to the second question 20 minutes of music at a dance class and 40 minutes of teacher talk is, in my view, unbalanced.

Teach less to learn more! By the way, I haven't a clue who on this is a teacher so I'm not intending to insult or demean the good work that people are doing.

Footnote: I just googled dance teaching methodologies just to see what might turn up and this might be interesting http://rule6.info/dance_raq.html we don't agree on everything but there's a lot of similarities - glad I'm not the lone voice - maybe it's not a case of looking for a perfect world - just a different one that's better!

- Edited by Jak on 18/12/2008 at 01:08

Wow interesting, good post Jak,

''a trained dancer with one to two years of dancing should in most codes be able to replicate a 3 minute routine after having seen it once. That's because they have a dance IQ and developed kinesthetic intelligence to break down complex sequences into simpler blocks of movement. That needs to happen more in the lessons I visited.''

How does one develope ones dance IQ?

I have been following this debate very closely.
I find it very interesting and I'm sure a lot of other people do too. So please keep posting your opinions!!

At first, as teachers, we all tend to think from the teacher's point of view because it's the one we know best!
In the past 20 years, however, most types of education have been focusing on the students rather than the teachers.

So let's focus on the students while planning a class:
What are they looking for (a good night?...),
What do they think they are looking for (a new move...),
What makes them better( maybe techniques taught behind the move...)
What they are expecting for the others (girls wanting the guys to get better leader...),
What makes them feel good and keep them motivated..(positive feedback, positive teacher, nice music...)...

For example, Salsa School has promoted that perspective by asking everyone what they wanted, bringing discussions and debates such as the present subject, trying to understand who are the studetns and what they want/need, innovate with balance classes, yoga classes...
What everyone can do to participate is giving them as much feedback and suggestions as you can to keep it going this way.
And do the same with other promoters and teachers!
Teachers most of the time don't get much feedback except "thanks I really enjoyed it!"
Be detailed: tell them WHAT you like/disliked so that they can replicate it!
Not all teachers will ask for feedback but, from experience, believe me: they all spend a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make their teaching better always.

Second point:
Also, there is going to be very different people attending every class:
Different types of learners, differently trained learners as the education system has changed so much over the years.
You can pick one style and this will define the type of students that will come to you.
Or you can try to consider and include different people and adapt your teaching the best you can to as any as you can.

Here is a very simple explanation of the different learning styles. The explanation below about different intelligence is as important as it explains different perpectives. So keep reading till the bottom!
http://www.ldpride.net/learningstyles.MI.htm#Learning%20Styles%20Explained

JoeyRamone,                  How does one develope ones dance IQ?

The link about the different types of intelligence may bring you a beginning of an answer.
1/ Define your type - understand how you work
2/ Learn quicker by using this information
3/ Develop other sides of your intelligence
4/ Develop your dance IQ ?

But this stays very theoritical! I d love to hear other's answers to your question.

- Edited by Van on 18/12/2008 at 11:46

this is very fun guys, befor you all spik get to know every dance school in dublin..

i do think suavementesalsa and garda club  has pushed another level the salsa sean in dublin..

bot you mast not forgett International Dance Academy  AFRIMANIA’ wich is doing allot for the salsa in dublin. allot of the girls you been dancing  in  the dance floor or with the guys in the dance floor  in dublin did come from this school.. i have to be onest..
8 International Irish Salsa Congress i dont call that is not doing much for the salsa sean in dublin..

i think every one has strengths and weakness, the good thing is that people have choices and this people ''not just them above'' bot every teacher and promoter should be well come in getting to bring new people in to the salsa sean  even if they are just to make money or have the passion to teach bot not the experience..in the end of the day people will make there disown where to go sooner or letter..

 

bot one thing we all have in commend to get as many people to know about salsa and to get them to dance and fall in love with salsa and hop they will become salseros,

 

if you are for the money you will make the money, if they are moor salsa people in the salsa sean..

if you are for the passion you have allot moor people to teach because of the other promoters who are just for the money..

 

so what ever way you look it we are all wining sooner or letter..

i hop i am not offending any one  ''if i did sorry''

The point Mario is not about the teacher's motivation - it's about how they teach - it doesn't matter why you are teaching (usually the reasons are quite complex, being a mix of financial motivation, fulfillment gained from teaching, gratification from social contact, desire to be seen as an authority figure, etc. Usually it's a complex mix of circumstantial and psychological factors) but what matters is that many teachers do not give their students an optimal experience. I don't buy the argument of "let the students decide" - if you take money then there's a moral obligation to give the student an excellent experience every time and if you don't take money then there's still an obligation to make clear what you are/what you are offering so that the student is fully informed. How many "teachers" stand up at a class and say "I'm here this evening to show you a few moves that I know and I want you to know that I'm doing this cos I'm an alright dancer but I haven't had any formal training in teaching dance."?

Hola all,

I live in Galway and have attended very few classes in Dublin, so I can't comment on teaching technique there. I have however taken classes with Dublin-based teachers at Salsa School and Galway Salsa Congress. I found all to be useful as I learned steps, body movement and styling (Cuban, LA and Reggaeton) from the various instructors. I understand Jak's points as I believe that once dancers have mastered the basic rhythm, timing, lead and follow technique and salsa steps, the most important and delicious progression is to introduce musicality and interpretation. However, we must take into account people's individual abilities. Some will very quickly feel the music as well as hearing it, and intuitively start to interpret, break the beats, add their own timing and styling. Some will never experience salsa that way. A lot of people only want an hour a week of fun and exercise. Most expect to learn a new pattern in every class. I think most Irish people want to learn a vocabulary of steps, learn how to lead/follow so they can execute them on the dance floor, and maybe, after months or even years, want to improve their own dancing, IF they are exposed to the potential WOW factor by seeing great dancers at workshops, congresses, or even on YouTube. In relation to the points on traditional teaching methods... yes, we are all used to them and perhaps it is time to progress. Personally, I think its vital to teach men how to cue and lead properly from the very beginning. sounds obvious, but I have danced with enough guys to know that its not always the case. I must commend the teachers in Galway like Christina, Patrick, Pedro and Anthony who literally will not allow a guy to progress until he can find the one, cue properly and lead clearly. Much appreciated! For ladies, I'm more interested in body movement than spinning technique, probably because Cuban salsa is danced more in Galway, and for this I'm lucky to have Samantha of AfroLatin Dance Project as a fantastic and passionate instructor. I think almost all salsa teachers are coming from a place of passion and wanting to share this with as many people as possible, basically to encourage mass salsa addiction! Time and space and teaching to the lowest common denominator is, I imagine, a big challenge. But as Mark noted above, the people who really want to improve will do so, through dancing with practice partners, attending workshops & congresses, taking privates, and just seeking out good teachers and dancers. So yes, it probably would be helpful to use more music and allow more experimentation in intermediate and advanced classes. But lets not forget why we started dancing salsa: because its infectious, joyous, feels great and is FUN. Vamos a bailar!

Hi Jak,

I'm just wondering if you have a martial arts background?   "The teacher needs to model how to give feedback by saying "When I do this move well I can feel that my arm is bent....", this is how beginners are taught in traditional Japanese/Korean styles.   Its highly effective, with quick learning and medium/fair recall after class.    To rebutt one of the threads - I believe it IS possible to give this level of attention to a 20-30 people, and most likely its exactly what you get in individual classes BUT the primary goal in that case is expertise/accellerated learning, not fun.

Almost every club I've gone to , the focus is on fun first, then skill development rather than the other way around. 

The format adopted by most instructors appears to be a visual, pattern based one, this format is a tried and tested method which keeps 90% of the students happy and thats not a bad thing.

Like you, I do prefer a little more explanation sometimes, but most instructors are happy enough to answer questions, but teaching is a skill in itself.  Not everyone can necessarily turn a hand to it, in Dublin, like everywhere/every profession, you will find a few dodgy ones in the mix, but more likely just ones that dont match the style of teaching you prefer.

One thing I heard mentioned was "making sure the man can find the '1' ".  Yes, dear Lord YES!    Suggestion:  perhaps it would be good to consider doing this from day one e.g. use a timing cd as part of the first beginner steps and point out the sound of the cow bell and basic clave.  Maybe even put a small part of the warming up mamboing to a timing CD?   It would make such a difference to newbies I reckon.    One Dublin based instructor I know asks the class to close their eyes and tap the one.  Its easy to see which students are finding it and which need a bit of help.  Great idea.

Just a note on accreditation.  Accreditation sounds great on paper, but in practise, it leads to bloated organistions, decision by committee, higher instructor/student costs,  and often lead to organisations slow to change which impede progress of both teacher and student under the guise of 'keeping standards'.   Currently Ireland has it great - Cuban/NY/LA all mix it up in a friendly free for all.   A good salsa instructor will likely be obvious after a few weeks, no accreditation required.

Anywho, my two cents, nice to see such a lively well thought out thread

Hello Everybody!

My girlfrend and I want to open a salsa school in Dublin. I would like to know if there is any  paper or certificate needed to open a school (i mean a degree or something)?

Thank you in anticipation!