Jak,

I was reading this whole thread and I was finding it very interesting but then it seemed to me you were arguing for the sake of arguing and your points were not clear and direct 

(example) 

1. Tom, my post was not personal and not about you. Your previous post suggested that salsa teachers put in a minimum of two hours preparation for each hour taught. The "you" in my sentence in previous post referred to the subject of the previous sentence which was "salsa teachers" and the "you" was used to identify the group of which you (without inverted commas) are a member. From here on you can read you as meaning you ;-)

When you say YOU you mean YOU if you ment Salsa teachers SAY Salsa Teachers.

You and i mean YOU Jak seem to have a lot of insider knowledge about Salsa teachers, booking events, costs, lesson plans what you expect/demand for your money. You also seem to have a lot of knowledge about business in general and for that I will bow to your superior intellect

I think it's time for you to step up take on the project and Promote to us in Ireland your Congress. From the way you are speaking it's going to be the cheapest around with a great variety of teaches and I for one am already making space in my Calender to attend. Oh also looking forward to the cheap breakfast

When is it Jak????

First off, to clarify, I'm neither a dance teacher or a promoter, just someone who enjoys dancing, the social scene that comes with it and who's interested in learning a few things about dance. 

I've never been to one of Tom's classes, but it sounds like he takes his teaching seriously and does his best to provide a positive learning experience for his students.  I've seen enough bad teachers in my time in many avenues of life to appreciate a good teacher when I see one.  Being able to teach anything well is a rare enough skill - in my experience anyway - so I have no problem with a good teacher making good money.  I see it as the skill I'm paying for more than the sheer hours invested - for example, if a salsa teacher is taking a beginner's class and has only spent ten minutes making out a lesson plan, but then is able to apply all their instinctual and learned experience to tap into the individual and group dynamics and play that class like a tune then I'll pay for that as readily as I'll pay for the skills of a world-class chef.  Of course you can never escape the donkey work, but the point I'm trying to make is that by attempting to measure what a teacher is entitled to charge based purely on what can be quantified on a balance sheet is to undervalue and demean the art of teaching itself.

And as a footnote, Tom, if everything you say about yourself is true and if I've understood Jak's last post correctly, then it seems to me that you actually do provide your students with everything that Jak spells out in his list of requirements for a satisfactory class.  Although I don't know what a spiral method is.

Apologies, correction to my last post - everything except a written lesson plan.

Yikes, I leave the thread for a few days and WWIII has broken out  (c) majorexaggerations ltd.

The threads title is 'high-priced congresses', so I guess the discussion of salsa classes should be taken to a different thread?  They are different topics after all?   Up to you guys

In regard to congresses:

No offence meant to anyone, but I think the "well why dont you do it better" style argument is entirely fair?   You dont need to become a doctor to have an opinion of what makes a good one do you?

What puzzles me in this thread a lot of the time is the real mix of language.  Its hard to pin down exactly what Salsa is.  Is it an art or is it a business?    People seem to mix the arguments for both in justification of pricing?

If an art, in its true sense, then art is typically done for arts sake, often involving zero profit, or profit only at the upper echelons.  Examples of this : most martial arts, performance art etc.  If its an art then typically it does need strong support of the community / its intended customers or it will fail, it is not really as dependent on the ebbs and flow of the market, or at least not as obviously.   This is certainly how Salsa started off imo.

If a business then typically, as a business it offers a service, or product, and sells said product with a profit expectation.   Though the service/product may be astethically beautiful, its still a 'pay yer money, receive X'.   In that case, the need for support is limited, the market dictates the price.   Where there is competition, typically you will see very low profit margin.  I think this is where Salsa is evolving.

The argument "shouldn't we be paid for all the effort we put in?" .  Sure,  I dont think there was ever a suggestion that work should not be paid for.  It is also expected ( under the law of captialism ) to charge as much as possible  i.e. to maximise profit.   I dont think that argument can be used as a basis for pricing however, it may be applaudable to put in herculean amounts of congress preparation work, a product that takes 6 weeks vs 6 months to create has still to cost relative to what the customer is willing to pay.  If the market dictates they sell for €1 then they sell for €1, the cost base is not part to the consumers concern, the cost per item/event is.   That said, on average the extra work will return dividends, in the amount of return business etc.

The act of dance is most certainly an art form.   Congresses and Classes are the business model around supplying this art to the customer afaics.   Do the arguments of the former apply to the latter?  Maybe I'm just overly cynical?

Tc4n,
H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 18/05/2010 at 15:32

granted there was no explicit suggestion that the work not be paid for, more a blatant disregard that any preparation, and investment went into the development of a class at all. the suggestion was a teacher was teaching walking in to a venue, teaching 20 students for 3 hours and banking €400 in the process.

HI Tom, I know you personally dont do that.  I have met one or two cowboys in the smoke that have done exactly that however ( e.g. charged €15 per hour to 30+ beginners i.e. people who didnt know good from bad ).   They were getting a free venue too!   Happily they are not the norm, and their clubs did not prosper     I think the thread got a little heated, is easy enough to happen.    I think Jak and westman09 before him are just challenging/querying the status quo - theres no harm in that.  Its heathy, and I have to say I love a good debate   I just think the discussion go side tracked onto classes, where it really shouldnt be imo.
MTC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 18/05/2010 at 16:44

true, but theres no sense moving it now

there is nothing wrong with people giving there opinions, and i love a good debate, but not when its a scathing ill informed generalisation about a group of which i am a member. and attack on the very people whos only aim (for the most part) is to share their love of dance, and be compensated for the time and money that goes in. yes, i have taken this personally, but how could i not?  i see teachers struggling to get classes off the ground, i see the effort that goes in and sometimes how little comes out. sure there are a few cowboys, but that is true for any business, service, or art, also there are some who are in it just for the money. but we cant just tar everone with the same brush.

Hi guys,

I was reading this debate about prices of Salsa Congresses in Ireland. I have to tell you that I somewhat agree with most of the things said here. I believe that the Irish Congresses are very very high priced compared to prices for the same in UK and across Europe. It seems that you can get better value for money elsewhere.

I believe that we have good selection of Congresses & Festivals in Ireland and the Salseros here are quite happy when International instructors come to teach in the country. The best we can do is just shop around, get familiar with every event, artists, national & international, venue, location, workshops, DJ's, price. Then you can decide where you can get better value and the most out of the event.