Benedick, Much Ado About Nothing, act2 scene3....next question please Hugh

Teaching and teaching a good lesson is not an arcane art, it's about meeting each student's needs at the level at which the student presents. It has nothing and should have nothing to do with the teacher's needs. The teacher's only need should be to meet the students' needs. When it starts to become about the teacher then you have ego getting into it. How many tecahers produce a written plan for their lesson? how many share it and the lesson in advance withe their students, most now have web sites so it shouldn't be a problem. Imagine looking up your teacher's web site and seeing that there's a video for the move/stylng /whatever that is going to be taught in the next class, imagine how much you would like to go and learn it, if not a video (in case teachers are afraid of losing money because the student learns from the video(what does this say about the teacher if you can learn just as well from a video) then how about a short description or a foot-pattern diagram.

Hey westman09,

You are absolutely right, every teacher should give 100% to meet students' needs, in and out of class, also in the club. The teacher should be interested in knowing what they liked about the classes and what they dint, encourage the students to give opinions about the class so that for the next week the teacher has a better understanding of what the students expect next class.

We must strive to give the best service and try to give 100% at all times in and out of the class because, in the end of the day, it is our passion that we are sharing and we must never hesitate to give it all. You will be getting your reward by simply seeing someone who not only dances better but also feels the music, shares your passion and knowledge that you've given to them with others ... 

that is the most important thing as teachers/promoters or salsa dancers can give to one another, I think ...

SalsaDublin teacher

[Edited by Mike to remove link to site - Just when I posted in another thread about not advertising in the forum!]

- Edited by Mike on 21/09/2009 at 22:22

I think you should have a little more faith in Irish teachers, I for one have a written lesson plan, and written ideas and goals on a more long-term basis. I let my students know in advance what the following lesson's focus will be and I talk them through it at the beginning of the class (for less than 2 minutes...don't fret!). I am in the process of setting up video samples and taster lessons online, I'm not saying that I am the only one who does this but you can't rule out everyone's good intentions.

When you've been teaching for quite some time it is easy to become stagnant in your approach to classes, I've definitely been guilty of this and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I hope that this discussion has a positive outcome, if students expect more from their classes and teachers start examining their approach, then everyone has something to gain.

Laura, that really does sound excellent, well done-the first example I've come across, where do you teach? If I could be a little controversial now and say, that while the step you are on now is excellent and way ahead of many, many others, that I would love if teachers moved to individualising lessons for their students (I don't mean giving individual lessons). I mean knowing their students' abilities to the extent that the teacher's planning includes statements to remind them about how named students learn best and in time moving to where students design their own learning through the feedback they give to the teacher.

I find i don't like the teacher (yapping)/ educating the class at it's history but i do like when they educate about the dance (example "this is a close dance so stay close or you'll hurt one another" or "don't just do it , do it SEXY").

If i find that it turns into yapping , i switch off and just concentrate on what moves we just done, so that time can be very useful.

I know people love history but because you go to each level for months, it would become a broken record for some. I think any good Salsa site will tell you the origans of the dance before you go. (or google)(or musicallity class)

I think there is a difference between "yapping" about history, and giving brief descriptions of the history and how to use that knowledge to help you find the right "feeling" in a move or a step.

For example in a beginners/improvers class it's nice to briefly touch upon the Yoruban origins of the rumba in order to explain what type of movement should be done for a side/side (rumba) step. We're talking about maybe a minute or so of information coupled with a 20 second demonstration of how a Cuban rumba/guaguanco would be danced traditionally.

@westman, I teach in Dublin, there is a listing on the class page.

- Edited by Laura on 25/09/2009 at 00:26

I think the word 'yapping' is uh, the wrong one to use.  It lacks a certain...subtlety

Most classes last an hour, two if you're lucky, and for congresses, time is a premium.    Talking about history with a fixed and understandable reason, to help improve technique - that falls under concepts to me.  Talking about history because well, for the sake of it - not an avid fan of it in a Salsa class ( and I quite like history ).

My final post on this thread, unless answering a direct question.

Take care /H.

Hi all, am new here but I wanted to post my experience recently in XXXX. I went to the improvers class at 830. The first thing I heard was the guy who later turned out to be the teacher say "we have a class but no moves". So, the class started a few minutes late while he and the female teacher made up a routine and practised it in front of us while we stood around. I thought that having paid for a class the teacher might have done some thinking about what he as going to teach in advance. We spent the first 15 minutes without moving literally, no warm up, just listening to the teacher talk. We then did a X-body and X-body to open once and stopped. There was another 5 minutes (I timed it cos I was getting p*ed off) of the teacher talking. The class was timed to start at 830 but it was 2 minutes after 9 when the first piece of music was played. It lasted less than 3 minutes. There was one more piece of music between then and 0930 when I had to leave. I asked my partners what they thought of the class and they all said that the teacher talked way too much for their liking and that was his usual teaching style. The teacher's name was XXX (he didn't bother introducing himself at the start so I had to ask someone so I hope I got the right name).

Edited to protect the identity of the teacher as I don't intend offence to anyone.

- Edited by John_OD on 08/10/2009 at 18:15

I used to regularly go to Marks class and found it to be good. Even when i moved up to Intermediates I used to still go to his class. You must have got him on a bad night John as I have found his classes really good and fun. Was this your first time in his class or your first improvers class? Considering he gets a huge crowd every week and has been teaching the class for years he must be doing something right.

John, having attended at the Garda Club for a number of years I feel the need to comment on your post.  Firstly I have been in Mark's class many times over the years both as a follower and leader and have always found his classes to be well taught, well structured and good fun (most important!).

If the Improver and Beginner classes were running later than usual perhaps there was a reason which the class were unaware of (or perhaps something was said during the warm up) and something had come up which Mark needed to attend to.  Also if Mark had not prepared his move this would be an exception to the rule as I have seen him many times preparing his move between 7.00 and 7.30.

As to the warm up this is carried out downstairs to include both beginners and improvers and once over the improvers are directed upstairs.

As Kat said above maybe you got Mark on a bad night but hope you will continue to come to the improver class and see that your experience stated above is not the norm!!

GB

Publicly giving someone a bad name as a teacher after only attending one of their classes is unfair.  Everyone has their off days.  If you want to make up your own mind about a teacher that quickly then that's your choice, but giving them a bad name publicly without giving them a fair chance first is bad form.

I disagree with your opinion Ciaran, John doesn't seem to be giving someone a bad name, just saying what happened and that he didn't like it. If what he says is true then it does sound like a very poor class, you will have to admit that.

On the other side of the "it must have been a bad day" argument, there's no excuse for not being prepared, there's a week between classes AND if you get a really bad meal in a restaurant, you must be the kind of person who goes back again wanting to give the chef another chance.

I would have to agree with Ciaran and in fact I only recently went back to a restaurant to give it a second chance and I was glad I did!

GB

John, while you are more than entitled to your view on my classes I would however clarify some points. Firstly, I am aware of the night in question as all classes started late due to a  technical problem. My class only started at approx 8.45. The warm-up as always was downstairs as stated by Ms. Glitter Bug and is publically announced.

Unfortunately I dont remember the first piece of music I played, but do remember it being at approx 9pm. I very much doubt it was under 3 minutes  as I dont know many tracks under 3 minutes suitable for teaching. I know I played Acid which is 5.06 minutes but cant remember if that was the first track. 

Not sure how that gave me time to teach one third of the evening's move (which did not include the cross body / cross body open you mention) and give me 20 minutes to talk. You are entitled to your opinion and I will take your comments on board, however, I  would have much preferred that you approach me directly in the class rather than broadcast your views on the internet after only one experience.

No offence intended, just wanted to let people know what I experienced. I thought posting was ok. I've changed the post now.

I know I said I wouldn't post on this subject again, but the train of this thread has changed. ( thats my excuse anyways )

John posted, unless I was mistaken because he was angry. he didnt have a good time at all in a class, and as a paying customer,  it was his right to be angry and to share his experiences if he wants to, and in this case he wrote a constructive ( if negative ) post with the faux pas of mentioning too many specifics.

There are many reasons why people prefer not to mention names, and sometimes its the knowledge that the Salsa community is small enough, so people are afraid in case they cause offence, they are afraid to be singled out as trouble makers, they are afraid that salsa instructors will close ranks.  In short fear. 

Justifiable, in my opinion, as what is described does happen.  I'm sure people will say 'name + shame' , but we live in the real world, in all its shades of dark and light.  There are a plethora of reasons not to use names on this site some of more positive of them:

1. Its unnecessary   // quality will thrive, bad will fail ( on average )
2. It is open for misinterpretation / abuse.   Lets say you dont like a certain teacher cos he's dating your sister etc.  What better way to stick it to him/her? than to harm his business?
3. It lacks finesse.

But the best reason of all to avoid naming on this site, is to keep the quality of this site intact.  Otherwise what we have is just another 'flame' site, full of bitter angry complaints without substance.   I dont think this is what this site is about.   If it goes like that then I for one will stop posting, maybe take up knitting ( until the knitting_fans.com threads start giving out about the cost of needles, and the yarn people start picking on the woolly ones ).

There is a story which might illustrate this:  Of how Abe Lincoln ( a bit of a hero of mine ) obtained his gift for diplomacy: In his youth, his hobby was writing scathing mails to papers, mostly about people in public office he felt were inadequate for the job ( it was before TV ).   He went too far and shamed a man and his family by name.  The result was he was tracked down and forced to duel, and kill this man, an act which horrified him to the core.

He  wrote only one other letter of this type again, they found it several years after his death, unsent.

May I humbly suggest in that spirit, that we avoid using names negatively on this website, remove those currently in this thread,  and maybe try keep things more constructive + fun.  Merryman was right earlier, there is a lot of moaning going on of late, and while there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, and sharing a few negative experiences, and even a good moan or two, its a Salsa site, so the future of the world hardly depends on it.  Or does it?

/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 13/10/2009 at 09:36

I agree Hugh and would like to add that most people on here are anonymous and that possibly is the comfort that allows them speak their mind or let off steam, but Mike and Mark are very much in the public eye and known to most, especially if you have been to Salsa School. I have to respect people who have such a passion for their hobby that they set up websites like this or organising a massive event like salsa school without getting any payment for it. Kinda off the point but felt the need to say it.

This has gone off topic...gotten personal...there's lessons here:

1. Stay on topic

2. Post guidelines that say no naming and shaming

3. Ensure Hugh keeps posting, he writes excellent, balanced posts

I've avoided posting on this for many reasons not the least of which being that Mark is both the co-admin of salsa.ie and a good friend but I do want to clear up a few things.

Firstly as the site admins we have no problem with naming names on the site as long as someone isn't slandering someone else. With that in mind if you name a name you can also expect the possibility that others will come out in their defence. That's the nature of things and it's bound to happen.

I know that Mark had no problem with being named and has taken some of the points on board. I think that he did however feel that some of the points were either unfair or inaccurate (i.e. no warm up) and responded to them. I don't think that the posts between John and Mark have gotten intentionally personal, the problem with written posts is that unfortunately tone and to some degree meaning can't always be conveyed easily...