I went back to college a few years back and while I was there some lecturers had stopped posting lecture notes on their websites as many students were just downloading the notes and not coming to lectures.  For some courses this made no difference as the lecturers weren't any good and only read from their notes anyway, but for other classes where there was good interaction, lively questioning and clarification of difficult points the students who didn't go definitely lost out. 

The problem with posting videos in advance would be that people who could still learn from a class might mistakenly assume that everything they need can be learned from the video.  Some people could pick up absolutely everything from a video clip, granted, but I think for most people there will probably be some subtleties that would be lost that could be picked up in class with a teacher. 

So how about a 'sample' in the same style kinda thing?    I wouldnt see it as being very beneficial though - if I have a lousy class with a teacher at a congress, sometimes I give the benefit of the doubt, but most times I just avoid that teacher for the remainder of the congress.   I've overshot sometimes e.g. with classes that were marked as 'intermediate' but shoudl have had the caveat  "If you know cuban and benchlift 1000lbs ".  Its no big whup I think - beginners should stick to pure marked as beginner stuff, until they ( and maybe their instructor ) feel that they are ready to move on to the next level.    

youve touched on an interesing point hugh...

i think the best solution to the levels problem is to have wardens. people who patrol the classes looing out for people who cannot cope with a class, and suggesting they leave if necessary. it can be very frustrating to attend an advanced class that ends up being "dumbed down" (sorry couldnt think of a better phrase) for people below the level of the class. or worse still, the teacher doesnt adjust the level, and the students soldier on and cause disruption or injury to people in the class.

I once suffered a pretty nasty shoulder injury in london at the hands of a lady who shouldnt have been in the class. it was an advanced on2, and she whispered to me "i dont know how do to on2" my reaction in my head was "why are you here then?" but i thought, what harm can she do? minutes later while leading her in traveling inside turns behind my back (part of the move) she lost her balance, and steadied herself by gripping my hand, and pulling my arm behind me in a very unnatural way. i had to leave the class, and couldnt take any other classes at the congress, had to perform injured, and needed 4 courses of physical therapy costing €40 euro each.

another alternative is to have your teacher/promoter register your level with your name, then you get an arm band of the appropriate color depending on your leve, but there are so many variations that might be impossible to administer.

There are events where its ok to 'chance yer arm' (sorry )  e.g. Rueda , where as the move is so dominated by the confidence of the male partner that , a lady beginner can wing it and still usually be ok, but intermediate to advanced stuff - yeah, I've been there; not the place for a brand new dancer to be imo.    The best approach I think if you find yourself out of your depth is to bow out and chalk it up to experience.   Wardens though?   Like some Orwellian nightmare?   Hmmmm not sure that about that one.   Maybe the best approach was to gently whisper back - "please dont take offense, but if you dont know on 2, you really shouldnt be here - for your own safety", and hopefully let her make the right choice    It is a little frustrating I know, if the instructor slows down the class as a result.

I was at a weekender a while back watching an Improvers class while I was waiting for an Advanced class to begin.  The routine was straightforward enough but a lot of people were struggling - and yet some of these same people (all men) still lined up for the Advanced class afterwards.  The teachers had enough cop-on to not slow the class down to their speed, but they nonetheless happily provided each and every lady in the class with some completely crappy and clueless partners.  Someone should have enough awareness to realise if they're completely in over their head, but when someone is so deluded to think that they'll have no problem with an advanced class when they can't even grasp a few simple turn patterns then I have no problem with someone setting them straight - if they want to give it a go with a partner of their own level, fair enough, but when they're making a bollox of it for other people then they need to be told.

The issue is that improvement is needed in two key and inter-related areas. First, there needs to be clarity around the person for whom the class is suitable and second the person taking the class should have a reasonable understanding of what they will learn before they go into the class(this will be of help in enabling them to choose the right class). The second area is easier to sort than the first because the promoter/teacher has the information and thus can disseminate it to intending participants. The discussion then becomes about how the information might be shared with intending participants.

its easy to blame others. but the infomation is clear, beginner, improver, intermediate, advanced. sure these are blunt instruments but people should know where they lie. the real problem is a lack of self awareness. most people think they are better than they are.

If, as you suggest Tom, most people think they are better than they are then either:

1. They haven't received any feedback from the teachers they attended as to what their level is

2. The teacher they attended is happy to carry on by dumbing down the classes and so creating false levels

3. Most people are simply to pig-headed to accept the advice offered by their teacher.

If it's either of the first two options then you have made a terrible indictment of teachers and if it's the last option then you really don't think much of people who dance salsa. Actually, your comment on its own, about most people thinking that they are better than they are, is really quite negative towards most salsa dancers. So, I respectfully disagree with the opinion that most people think they are better than they are at least in relation to option 3. I am not inclined to start another contentious debate and so I will decline to offer opinion on options 1 or 2. 

I presume, Tom, you don't include yourself with most people? You actually know how good you really are! (I hope my humour goes down well)

oooh look, jak champion of the people is here to rescue teachers and dancers alike from tom and his negative comments. thank god we have you jak, otherwise who knows what i might say...

my point most people think they are better than they are, and some have good self awareness, and some people even think they are not as good as they are. it was not a negative critisism of anyone, unlike most of your posts over the last few weeks, it is a comment that can be applied to any group of people. its part of the human condition.

now, onto how this affects salsa... from my opinions and what i have seen, the salsa scene is small, and teachers cannot afford to loose people, either loosing them from the salsa scene, or to another teacher, so to a certain degree, teachers sometimes dont hold back students when they should, for fear it will frustrate them. i have seen it first hand, dancers moving in to an advanced class, purely because the teacher didnt want to loose them. The result of this however is that the level comes down, and people are lost at the top end of the scale. So, this means what defines what an advanced dancer slips down a bit, and this propogates down through the system.

example from personal experience:

once i was teaching a beginners class where there were 2 girls who joined together, one of them was great, and the other was a slower. after 3 lessons the great girl was ready to move on to improver level, she knew her basics perfectly, had a great frame, good awareness, but the other girl still wasnt ready, she had some things fundamentally wrong. But she was quite frustrated when i told her that i felt she wasnt ready for the next level, and that she would be better off staying for another week in the class she was in, because the step up from beginner to improver is quite big etc etc. She stopped coming to the class after that. But i knew letting her into the next level would frustrate people there, and potentially loose people in the next class. This im sure is a common enough dilema for teachers, but it becomes more difficult when its not 1 beginner, but 10 intermediates looking to move up, who have found an alternative "advanced" class if they cant get into this one.

to answer your question, in every aspect of my life i have always been my own worst critic. I am very self aware, and always see room for improvment.

why do your posts always result in you asking me direct questions about myself?

by the way, i didnt notice your humour sorry, it must have gone over my head.

Ambition.  Reason guys / girls try classes ahead of their abilities.    Everyone wants to be 'gifted' and become an awesome dancer in a short time.    I dont believe in 'gifted', I believe in attained skill sets. 

What I have noticed however was how quickly others jumped levels.   Beginners stayed for 2-3 classes, then hopped to improver, improvers HAD to be Intermediate in 10 weeks or so or....  I've seen this more with salceras especially, e.g. dancing with a lady who cant basic step and with a grip of steel around my fingers and wondering if maybe she's in the wrong level class - so the reverse of Ciarans experience.

Edie the SF, had a great graphical analysis of the different learning curves and the reasons for this ( I linked it in to salanation, but that forum appears to be gone?  shame :'( ), but the primary reason is as always, ambition. 

Its difficult to ask someone to curb their ambition, maybe it should be stated at the start of a beginner or improver course "hi folks , dont be tempted to jump too early" etc, and clearly explain the benefits of this?   Once people see the benefits, maybe they wont be in such a hurry?

Wow - really plastic thread in term of topic shift init?  

- Edited by Hugh1a on 17/06/2010 at 12:03

- Edited by Hugh1a on 18/06/2010 at 14:06

I think that attending classes above your level probably happens particularly at congresses because people are curious, or want to challenge themselves. Its only when you see it from the other angle (i.e. when the level is right for you, but a tonne of beginners-improvers arrive and haven't a hope in heck, giving you much less opportunity to practice properly) that you realise how frustrating it is.

I think the thing people need to realise is that, never mind what your ego is telling you, you learn much more in classes that are appropriate for your level. I've been dancing 6 years or so, but I seldom go to the advanced classes at congresses. I normally take in a few improvers classes instead, and often get the most usable stuff and tips from them!

Agreed, nothing wrong with challenging yourself, and I think we've all tried to bite off more than we can chew sometimes but I think there is a tendency for instructors to dumb down a class in anticipation of this phenomenon though. 

I've gone to one or two congresses and been really disappointed with how basic an improver class was...but then again the class was full of beginners ...