Hi all

Mad stuff going on here. Very entertaining.

As far as I can see you pay your money and take your choice. After you've chosen you get what you get depending on what you want from the event and what you're willing ot put in to it. If you dont perceive your experience as worth the money you dont do it again. Organisers do or dont reflect on their performance and attendee feedback and the financials / business model and then either change or dont and finally will continue or stop.

There is a valuable exchange possible here that could be of use to promoters and provide an enhanced experience to attendees I'll try to start a topic where people can share what they feel makes for a good congress.

Fair play to you Alastair, I am refreshed to see that more common sense has come to the surface.  I have found reading some of the somewhat cowardly and baseless Innuendo and unqualified remarks regarding “second rate teachers” and the price of an unnamed festival to be somewhat unsettling. 

 

The value of any festival I presume is judged by those who go to it   and the value of any teacher by their students

 

Thanks for cheering me up this morning Alastair. 

 

Patrick, you're referring to me post-that's clear! First of all, other posters have supported that some congresses are not good value/are highly priced. Secondly, the phrase "cowardly and basesless innuendo" is a characterisation reflecting on me...I would appreciate you either being specific about where the cowardice and baseless innuendo are extant or retracting your remarks on this point as being baseless and inappropriate.

Westman09 I agree with you and some of the other  posters that some congresses  are not good value and it is a very useful exercise to provide useful information of benefit to teachers and promoters alike .  However unfortunately when unqualified remarks are made on a forum through an Irish website regarding an upcoming congress regarding high prices coupled with an insult regarding  “ second rate teachers” the general consensus will be that an Irish congress is being referred to.

 

If you are intentionally ambiguous about what congress you are referring to don’t be surprised if those reading believe it to be one congress or another.  Why go to an Irish website to question the pricing of a Salsa congress overseas.?  I think if you go to a festival and do not enjoy it, it is one thing, but to fire a few shots publicly across the bows of a festival not yet held and to simultaneously insult a wide group of   presumably well established, liked and successful teachers is a little underhand.

 

Surely if you have a genuine and real concern about   prices, live bands, teachers   etc you should call the organisers to see if they can help out or give you some answers to the questions you need to be answered and in particular the ones raised here.  Writing that   you would “find it difficult to make an informed choice about a festival mentioned without more information about the program” when you have already had a pop at its price without presumably ever having attended it is senseless.  How informed is that? There was however an informed   comment by someone who actually attended it and judging by his comments he appears to have had a great time, made new friends and got value for money. That is a fact and can be validated.

 

The Cowardice refers to   knowing that you have led many posters to believe you are referring to a particular event but deliberately remaining silent when challenged (which I believe you should),  coupled with the knowledge that you are anonymous, and baseless innuendo refers to you being derogatory towards  a range of teachers by referring to them as second rate without any facts.  If you have taken lessons from all the teachers at whatever festival you are referring to you may have a valid personal opinion but unlike all other posters you are the only one who has been derogatory towards them. I have been as specific as I can.  

 

I would hope that on a human level you would use this site to be positive towards the progress of Salsa and those involved with it here in Ireland. I don’t think you have been to date.

 

For the record I have a strong and vested interest in the success of  Salsa in Ireland . I  do however have a bigger interest in a sense of “fairplay”.  

Westman09 I agree with you and some of the other  posters that some congresses  are not good value and it is a very useful exercise to provide useful information of benefit to teachers and promoters alike . 

 

Ok, we are agreed!

 

However unfortunately when unqualified remarks are made on a forum through an Irish website regarding an upcoming congress regarding high prices coupled with an insult regarding  “ second rate teachers” the general consensus will be that an Irish congress is being referred to.

 

That's an assumption on your part-you might refer to comments I referenced to congresses outside Ireland to substantiate the view that I was not confining my comments to any particular area. My advice since posting originally is to not name the congress to avoid any possibility of allegations that could be injurious to the good name of any congress.

 

If you are intentionally ambiguous about what congress you are referring to don’t be surprised if those reading believe it to be one congress or another.  Why go to an Irish website to question the pricing of a Salsa congress overseas.?  I think if you go to a festival and do not enjoy it, it is one thing, but to fire a few shots publicly across the bows of a festival not yet held and to simultaneously insult a wide group of   presumably well established, liked and successful teachers is a little underhand.

 

Re: ambiguous see above. I have no control over what people believe or choose to believe. By firing shots you if mean complaining about poor value for money/high costs and expressing dissatisfaction about no programme being available-well there we differ as I believe these are justifiable criticisms. As for the comment on the teacher line-up you'll have to take my word on it, though I suspect that you won't.

 

Surely if you have a genuine and real concern about   prices, live bands, teachers   etc you should call the organisers to see if they can help out or give you some answers to the questions you need to be answered and in particular the ones raised here. 

 

Been there, done that! I was told to get stuffed (politely).

 

Writing that   you would “find it difficult to make an informed choice about a festival mentioned without more information about the program” when you have already had a pop at its price without presumably ever having attended it is senseless. 

 

You need to re-read what I wrote about price in general-it was substantiated by other posters-it's not just me who believed that some congresses are pricey/offer poor value.

How informed is that? There was however an informed   comment by someone who actually attended it and judging by his comments he appears to have had a great time, made new friends and got value for money. That is a fact and can be validated.

 

You seem to be presuming it's a certain congress-would you be surprised to learn it's not what you think?

 

The Cowardice refers to   knowing that you have led many posters to believe you are referring to a particular event but deliberately remaining silent when challenged (which I believe you should),  coupled with the knowledge that you are anonymous,

 

I have no control over what people believe so you can't blame me for people jumping to conclusions. As for the anonymity-so too are you!!! Would you care to reveal yourself?

 

 

For the record I have a strong and vested interest in the success of  Salsa in Ireland .

 

That I can guess!

 

Firstly  I welcome the removal of a reference to second rate teachers and an upcoming congress from your post and give you worthy credit for that. My personal details can be exchanged with you or anyone if you or they wish. I use my real first name like many of the other people on the site.  I obviously have a respect for the many excellent Salsa teachers that are around the country. We have put our sides forward and we will always disagree.  Any discussion regarding high priced salsa congresses is worthy of balanced and even and fair comment and I feel your comments were not reflective and fair to the many qualified, liked, skilled,  succesful and experienced teachers from Ireland and overseas or to a congress that many of them will be attending soon.   Only you know your intent.  Mine is to support Salsa and its teachers here in Ireland and if you or I can help them with constructive debate, we are all winners.   

Patrick,

You're not getting it...the discussion centred on price, value and meeting the needs of students (the client). Whether the congress was in Ireland, France or Latvia is actually irrelevant and you're making too big a point of it cos you think I've somehow undermined salsa in Ireland in some cowardly way. Anyway, this my last post on the topic-si spera, ci occuperemo di nuovo.

Anyone know of classes in carlow wexford are cant find a partner or a class in this neck of the woods

Killkenny salsanation.ie Tuesdayz

Hey, just came across this price comparison and though people might be interested

Salsa school now costs €125 while Mambocity costs £130/£135. In Salsa school you get 8 teachers listed on the website, half from Ireland half not. In Mambocity you get the ones listed below. So, my question is if salsa school is still good value? How come the organisational costs of the two events are so similar when for mambocity you have a much larger range of teachers who have to be flown in, wined, dined and paid? Is it the case of Irish costs being too high-the venue and teachers charging more (some but only some of the foreign listed ones do work in UK I know but take Yamulee which is 6 people usually from USA)? Just looking for opinions.

Austria
Anke Obermayer

Cuba
Alex Garbo
Ariel Rios Robert
Yanet Fuentes
Osbanis & Anneta
Rafael Del Busto
Yunaisy Farray
______________________

France
DJ Gabriel
______________________

Germany
Anichi Bauer
______________________
Holland
Manoah Bernabela
Femke Bernabela
______________________


Ireland
Anthony Auffret
______________________

Italy
Ansima Prod' Ballet
Carla Voconi
Chiara Barone
Daniela De Francesco
Latin Passion Group
Marco Farrigno
Michele Di Benedetto
Micky Rizzi
Tony Lara
Zero In Condotta

______________________

Mexico
Natalia Lopez
______________________

Puerto Rico
Tito & Tamara
Amneris Martinez
______________________

UK
Andrea Stewart
Boy Blue
Dani Hike
Duende
Gary & Jayne (Mamboleo)
Irene Miguel
Iris De Brito
Lisa & Mark (Con Tambor)
Hakeem Onibudo
Kenrick H2o Sandy
Marchant & Davina
Mauro & Eva
Mel C (Carpe Diem)
Michael & Maxine
Miguel & Mayana
Miguel & Marlene
Mo T
Olu Olu
Ozy Shyne
Rohan Brown
Sam "Mr Sleek"
Shelley Cook


______________________

USA
Adolfo Indacochea
Juan Matos
Nelson Flores
Osmar Perrones
Proyecto Descarga
Sekou McMiller
Stracy Diaz
Tomas Guerrero
Yamulee

_____________________

Spain
Falco & Virginia (Calúa-ye)
Iago y Antia
Pedro Gea (Asi Se Baila)

Hi Jak,

while we can see how at first glance it appears that you have a point we would have a couple of points to make. Firstly Salsa school is a non profit event. We run the event in order to bring the community together and every cent that we bring in by way of ticket sales goes into the weekend. This means getting the best deal on venue, teachers, facilities etc.. The weekend costs exactly what we bring in through ticket sales, and none of the people involved in running the weekend (organises\volunteers) take a cent out.

Also we would point out that while the prices you quoted appear similar at first, after exchange rates there is actually a difference of about €30. Also if you are looking for a non accommodation ticket (which a lot of our attendees do go for) the cheapest early bird price for mambo city is €45 more expensive than our cheapest price. That money combined with the number of attendees involved would go a long way towards bringing in more teachers from abroad.

Salsa school is a unique event and it does not pretend to be the same as other international\national congresses. It is organised purely through a pasion for salsa and the feedback we get every year encourages us to keep organising it. When people stop getting the enjoyment they do from the event then salsa school will no longer exist.

Hey Admin, I agree fully and totally respect you for running salsa school. My post was not about dissing your work. I was curious bout how come Irish costs are so highQ(and I mean the costs to the organisers from the venues etc). But, I do want to respond to the points you make.

First, you claim that the organisers make nothing out of the weekend and while I accept that I believe that the teachers do make money. In fact, I know one teacher who told me that they enjoy basically a free weekend (I'm not sure was there some incentive system for them if they booked in some of their students-my memory is hazy on that but please correct me if I'm wrong). The teachers (Irish) are part of the salsa community and they make money from students week in, week out. If it's the case that they are also paid for teaching at a non-profit event then maybe this is something that could be worthy of consideration. Perhaps they have already volunteered their services as part of a community effort and if so I want to applaud that generosity of spirit.

Second, you refer to the exchange rate. While this appears to be a logical comparison/calculation it is actually not relevant as the currency in which the price is denominated retains the same relative weighting to the costs incurred by the organisers as their costs are denominated in the same currency. Your currency discrepancy would only apply if the UK organisers were taking in money in sterling and paying for goods/services in euro. The point remains that the relative cost for the UK event appears somewhat out of kilter with Irish costs. (I know this is a bit "economicy" but if you'll forgive the expression, it's on the money)

Third, you mention an early-bird price comparison and I fully accept that as accurate but it does raise the question around the pricing structure model that Irish events use. I would argue that the most valid comparison can only be made at the top end of the pricing model as it reflects the optimal price scenario for the organisers.

Finally, from your post you mention the excellent work done by salsa school and I want to endorse and acknowledge that good work. Your passion and commitment to ensuring that a good time is had by all is certainly laudable and the voluntary manner in which you and the other volunteers give freely of your time and expertise is worthy of the deepest appreciation by those dancers who attend and enjoy their experiences.

Finally, on this topic I have noticed that the cost for the Cork festival is €169. Even allowing for exchange rates this works out as £145 aprox sterling. This is more expensive than the most expensive ticket for the largest UK salsa event. I'd be interested to learn why this is the case.

Hi Jak,

We don't want to get into a big debate about congresses, a lot of this has been spoken about already in this thread. Also we don't want to get into discussing the particulars of other Irish congresses, that is not our place. I will make a couple of points about Salsa School

1) With regard to teachers, while we get a very special deal from most of the teachers (international and national) we must remember that in most cases this is their business and their livelyhood and we respect that. They provide a service at the weekend and deserve to be rewarded for that. We run a community event but that doesn't mean teachers should be expected to work for free.

2) With regard to the exchange rate, I see where you are coming from but I am simply comparing like with like (Euros with Euros)

3) On the issue of the early bird\pricing structure. In the first Salsa School we went with a flat rate price all the way. This was a disaster from a planning point of view as, since most people didn't have an incentive to book early they left it to the last minute which left us having to book a lot of teachers at the last minute. As a result we have gone with an early bird structure every year since and this has made a huge difference for us.

Finally I would like to thank you for your kind words about Salsa School. I do appreciate that you are just trying to discuss the issues around higher prices in Ireland when compared to the UK, this is something everyone is doing with regard to everything these days. Unfortunately the reality is that due to a number of factors that again have been discussed ad nauseum this is just the way of things at the moment. I can only hope that the current deflation in the Irish economy (while very tough on a lot of people) will go a long way towards correcting this.

- Edited by Admin on 27/04/2010 at 10:48

Hey there,  I thought this thread was dead, cool to see people opinions still churning / thinking on this

I think if you go early bird for Salsa school its a steal - I ordered 4 tickets the moment they came out for my friends / family.   It is facinating that the teachers in Mambo city are quite varied, I wonder however, do they recieve similar numbers / support or is the event 10 times bigger ?

There may also be a multi-job situation - eg. if a professional dance teacher flys into heathrow, they dont do it for one event do they?  Typically I guess he/she does a circuit of events yes?   That opportunity is not as common in Ireland, and is not as well paying ( I'd assume its not chickenfeed either )and is based on the numbers that do attend. 

I dont mind Irish dance teachers being part of the whole thang, as long as they are v. good Irish dance teachers.  Why knock them just cos they're Irish?  Are we really going to say that only instructors from LA or Cuba or Mexico are any good?  Maybe they bring a flavor of their culture with them, and certainly their culture may permeate with the music etc at an earlier age, creating some kick a*s dancers, but some of the best instruction I've had has been in the hands ( oo-er ) of an Irish Dance Instructor.    If it brings down costs I'm all for it - provided the standard remains high.

In terms of cost - I read recently we are looking at a 3 - 5% per anum drop in cost of living, which means even in spite fo skyrocketing taxes on things like petrol, services etc, Salsa events, like everything else should be able to be hosted for on average 5% less.  Given the hotel /service industry is fairly desperate, I'd guess maybe as much as 10% given the right negotiator.  

So are many Salsa events becoming more affordable in line with inflation?   Are professional dance instructors lowering their prices or are they remaining high and risking being displaced by new talent?  It doesnt seem so, seems like they will not buck the trend until numbers fall, which is a shame, as I love big lively congresses

As predicted last year ( yay me ), prices seem to have frozen.   People are applying 2008 prices in a post boom Ireland, while hoping for an upturn or that people will grin and bear it, which they might - lets face it people in Ireland put up with a lot, and Salsa/dance can be a happy diversion in a bad time, much as the dancehalls of the 50's n' 70's were.

Jak, my opinion is that if you feel a price is too high, its you're choice whether to accept it or not, in the current climate its only natural that people with money right now will spend it more conservatively and people without will look for value for money.  Win-win for consumers.    My guess is you are already looking at UK events this year?  

I know its not something Irish Salsa wants to hear, but the more that do look for value for money the more value for money will enter the market.  i.e. its better to drive an extra 5 minutes to get cheaper petrol, as mid/long-term, it encourages cheaper petrol

MTC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 27/04/2010 at 19:16

Hugh you have missed my intended point about the teachers. The issue is that UK event equals long listof teachers involving greater expense because of travel, accommodation and fees for teaching than Irish event(s) charging for shorter list of teachers and for whom travel costs are not as likely to be extensive. Where the teachers come from are irrelevant to my point! The focus for the point was that while Irish congress prices are comparable and perhaps even greater than UK congress price the costs associated with running the UK congress appear on the face of things to be greater. I was not in any way dismissing Irish teachers! I mentioned Irish teachers because their travel costs are less than international teachers. Other than that I agree with your post without reservation! Any comment on the price on the specific examples I mentioned? Do you believe the prices could/should be lower?

Jak, looking at the list of teachers you listed above I can see a number of them that are listed as being from outside the UK are  actually based in the UK. Travel costs are a factor no doubt but so are numbers. I have been to that Mambo City Congress and it is excellent and is very popular. It really all comes down to maths ..... you can only spend what you get in and Salsa School gives us a good indicator of what you can get for your money. As its non profit we get to see what can be got for our money, let face it we (the punters :-) ) are getting the gig for cost.

for me its as simple as this. Irish congresses are more expensive on the face of things, but dont foget you dont have to fly to them.  A congress in europe might be 100 quid cheaper, but you will probably have to pay that to get there.

we should aim to support irish events as much as possible, otherwise they might die out altogether.

when deciding whether of not to go to a congress, i think  of it like this. how much does it cost, now, how many private lessons with a top class international teacher can i get for that, now does it still look like value for money? if not, ill probably just go to the parties.

as for irish teachers, well, there are many overlooked irish or irish based teachers who are probably as good or better than some of their international counterparts. I will take a class with anyone that has something to teach me, no matter where they are from. A lot of people need to examine themselves and realise they can learn a lot here in ireland. Sure it is a small pond, but there are pleanty of big fish to swim with. We just gotta look outside the box. Ive danced all over this country, and there are excellent dancers in every part of it.

I think its crazy to pay a fortune for lots of international teachers when there are very many great teachers right on our door step, giving great classes in their own clubs etc. But Joe Soap from the country isnt going to draw people to a congress, so they gotta go with big names to draw a crowd. If there were just domestic teachers at a congress, imagine how much cheaper it would be though?

HI Folks,

Jak - sorry I did miss your point a little bit      I'm not getting suckered into making direct comments on any one congress.   When westman09 did that it caused a bit of a hulaballoo

I dont look for private lessons with top teachers, maybe I should?   I look for nice venue, good craic, good level of group lessons and some decent music doesnt hurt.   Like any canny, handsome, modest Cork man, I tend to look for bargains, deals, and more deals.  Uh..maybe a little more that some e.g.  I buy my halloween costume in February

I spend my money where I see value e.g. the Moate events / parties, Galway parties, Salsa School, Mulligar Guest Instructor nights, Bachata nights in Athlone etc.  So I guess this is supporting Irish Salsa.    When it comes to congresses, the Salsa School one is cheap for what you get, and yes certainly some congresses are overpriced, unless you seize the event and shake it for every last ounce of fun ( which everyone should )

That said, this year, I am thinking of trying a salsa congress abroad, and as mentioned by somone earlier even with the flights, provided you book early enough, it still works out the same as a salsa event here, and its a change of scene.

I dont think Salsa will die out if people do this - its got a fairly hardcore following, but perhaps the orgainisers say "numbers were down this year... why is this?  How can we be more competitive?  XXX charged too much, what about YYY?, maybe we can negotiate a better deal with Hotel X and pass our savings on to our clients?".

If a salsa event were to ever die, it would be a shame but I suspect we'd see something rising from the ashes in time...

Maybe an Joe Soap, eager to makes a name for himself on the dance scene... or another Salsa School - who knows?

- Edited by Hugh1a on 28/04/2010 at 19:48

Tom, you missed my point! How you get to a congress is irrelevant. I am comparing the prices of congresses, period! It's the only fair way to compare like with like. The point is, that Irish events appear to me to be quite expensive.

I have little quibble with Irish teachers (other than the ones who don't prepare adequately, don't get to know their students, don't deliver feedback, don't use music, don't realise that not everyone learns the same way, don't work to make the class fun and interesting,  and don't dance with the students after the class). Sure there are some fine teachers in Ireland but this belongs to a different thread.

Hugh, could it be a  case of damned by omission?!

Jez Jak!  Remind me to have you on my side on an negotiation table.   Nope, no one is damned in my eyes - except maybe those guys who took Firefly off the air, or use lazer pens in cinemas (soo funny ), or decided that pre-meetings before meetings were a good idea.  Yeah, theres probably a special place in Dantes hell for those guys.

All I would say is: there is value for money out there, its subjective to what you are looking for, and of course where you are, the salary average of the country etc.   There are some parts of the world where you can hire a private Salsa Intructor for the DAY for under 30 euros, but Ireland is isnt one of them.  It was high cost country.  Note the past-tense

This will change, thats not a maybe, that a definite.   Due to the ecconomic dire straits we are now in, they may change quite quickly, I dont know what the future holds, but lets take a worse case scenario:  Greece is bailed out, Ireland defaults ( there not enough money in Germany to bail out everyone ) so Ireland gets kicked out of the euro.  Savings are instantaenously reverted into 'punts' , which once floated would of course be worthless internationally.    Either inflation skyrockets as people try to retain the 'euro equivalent' but that would bring more unemployment.   More likely, cost of living falls into a rapid decine, especially due to the huge percentage of unemployment that would bring.   Thats worse case - but we're not talking in 10 years here, where talking this year or the next.    

Best case:   uh.... we stem the tide of borrowing somehow - the only way to do that is huge tax increases and salary decreases afaik.  We stay in the euro, but as a poor cousin.   I'm not an economist ( though talking money is as you might guess a passing hobby ) I could be wrong - very wrong but seems to me unless some super-miracle occurs - people will soon have a lot less money to go around.   That means that  events will either have to get cheaper to continue occuring, or they just wont continue, lets face it all congresses are luxury items.   

I bought a car yesterday, while doing so - a few people called into the dealer, trying to sell their pride and joy, obviously well cared for cars - bought for over 40,000 [ I'd guess - they were beautiful ] they were expecting at least 20G for them.   They were offered 8-10.   As you can expect, there was a certain amount of agitation.   The hammer fell for these people.   The hammer has yet to fall for Irish Salsa, or at least thats my ( long winded ) opinion. 

If I recall my history correctly 80 or so years ago, there were few dance halls outside big cities, people used to take their door off and use it for Irish Dancing.    I'm not saying a revert to the dark ages is on the cards, but people will I think evaluate what they need and what they are prepared to pay for, in the days of celtic tiger supremecy - they didnt care, in the days of the celtic kitten they most certainly will

TC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 30/04/2010 at 13:36