Hi Julie,

There are times when the leader is obviously being completely unreasonable.   This sounds like one of them.  There is NEVER an excuse to shout at anyone, in a class or on the dancefloor imo.

Getting the move wrong is I guess possible at any level, but turning a girl on 1 sounds like a beginner mistake.  Maybe he was biting off far more than he could chew?    Did he strike you as knowledgable/professional? ( apart from the mistake? )

The desire for some followers to get the move right AND stay in time with the rest of a class, can often result ( in my experience ) to the lady back leading, which is very very frustrating for the leader, as he gets little/no benefit from the move if he doesnt learn how to lead it.    That frustration should of course never be used as an excuse to intimidate or berate a partner.

I have occasionally politely asked my lady to 'please allow me to lead', where this was obviously occuring, and sometimes if I fluff a move, I'll add a basic into the routine to allow me time to get the lead / move right, which can fluster some salceras who want to keep in exact time with the others       The way I look at it, its not the instructors job to finish the move safely - its mine.  Once I've got the move, then thats a different story.     

Also just remembering a recent intermediate Rueda with Mo-Flex, where he had to stop the ring a few times to say 'Ladies, PLEASE, let your man lead you!, he will get the lead... eventually!  [ trademark winning smile ]'.  So its common enough I reckon.

I dont think this is your situation - just my thoughts in general on the subject.

Your main question is a very old one and answered most poetically about 600 years ago.  ( courtesy of Bill Shakespeare )

"We must follow the leaders.  In every good thing?"
"Nay, if they lead to any ill, ...leave them at the next turning." 

MTC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 10/09/2009 at 14:37

I dont think im as advanced as the guys above, however from what i do know, that all sounds a bit tense, our class is cuban style with a big emphasis on 'RELAX' . we men may lead poorly sometimes, however we're even worse at following ,so ladies.....no point in you trying to lead us then. also a class is an hour, as we learn the move and memorize it our lead does get stronger. also you should not be defensive or correct each other,call the teacher over, if the teacher is good enough they will point out your own mistakes which is what you should be interested in. did i mention REEELAX. ( says he to himself hhmmm ) 

This is a good one ... i like this

Suggestion for him: ( without being nasty )

Merigue would be brilliant for this guy .. In the last class i was in it say no matter what your leader does he meant to do it. This would allow him to lose any chip on the shoulder and have fun at the same time.

Suggestion for her:

ALWAYS Follow The Leader. There are plenty of people will happily lead you around the room and turn/dip/spin your frown into a smile. I say it straight, I would never continue dancing with an angry dancer.

Turning thumbs would be more fun.

I'll add one more thing , Sometimes it's difficult to get everything right and in my case impossible.

Hey leixliplearner,

Ok, yes I agree to a point, but this fellow was in an advanced salsa class, I've never met Julie, but based on her previous posts, I'm pretty sure shes an advanced dancer that knows what she is doing.   Would you ever advocate shouting at a lady who refused your lead?    As I know you quite well, I'd hazard you wouldnt.  Not for a second.   Thats not to say you wouldnt be frustrated!    Be it the boardroom or the ballroom, shouting = angry = loss of control =amateur.

Always following the leader, hmmm,  even it he is leading you into a wall?  Uh-uh, the advice I'd give my sister would be 'stop' in the event of a bad or dangerous lead.  

In terms of angry dancers...  I dunno.   Its not really meant to be a fair system afaics.   Salsa was invented long before political correctness came about.    Its latin.   From my personal experience, in the latin culture, its perfectly acceptable for a woman to get angry one minute and be as calm an peaceable as the sea on a summers day next, for men, they have to follow the 3 F's i.e. to be strong, formal, intelligent at all times and in all situations.  I think this should also be applied to leading salsa.

I've had dances where the lady was calm and pleasant intially only to become medusas evil twin the next, likewise I've danced with ladies who have been initially rather cross but been won over by the music, the rythm, and the courtesy given, to become angels of the dancefloor.  Though you may not enjoy the dance, I think you owe it to yourself to finish it, and allow every opportunity for the situ to correct itself.

John, you might be right, my posts could be a little more relaxed, salsa is for me just a hobby, I do tend to adopt a trademark overanalysis.   If it comes across as being to serious - I apologise, its just my nature

TC4n,
H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 13/09/2009 at 20:05

Thanks lads for your input.. some very valid points there.

I think I was just so shocked at the incident more than anything else. As you have said, the guy was making a fundamental basic error in allegedly a high level class and was just totally unaware of it to the extent of getting angry at me!

Anyway needless to say I'll be avoiding him next week

J

There are two issues here: spinning on 1 instead of on 5 as the follower expected and the behavioural response from the leader when the follower didn't follow. First, the behavioural response was, as described, inappropriate. I add the caveat that we are only hearing one side of the story but I take Julie's bona fides and say that unequivocally "going mad" and "shouting" but particularly the first are unacceptable under any circumstances. The only time the second is acceptable when it's necessary to make yourself heard above the music.

Secondly, on the point of the spin: it is possible to spin on any beat or off-beat of the music, the question is what lead matches it and how it fits with the music. In my view it was the follower's responsibility to try it out, if the follower wasn't capable of executing then that provides feedback to the leader. So, while the follower's response was understandable and predictable given the circumstances I would advise next time going with it and letting the leader learn from experience. You are not in any danger as a follower and as long as you are able to control your spin you can finish on either leg you wish.

westman I have to disagree there.. you can't be lead properly into a spin on beat 1.. your weight is in the wrong place. to spin properly and safely you have to be prepped!

Hi westman, you have a point, as a wise man once said, everything in this universe is affected by perspective.

Anywho, it would be nice to just go with the flow I agree, but from what I've seen the the fastest way for a follower to get a bad back is to accept a really bad / inappropriate lead.  ( for fellas - its bachata-tango without warming up ).  I'd still recommend giving the guy some inital feedback and saying no or stop if you have to. 

Julie, I am presuming your weight on beat 7 is on your left leg. Most followers spin on their right leg so spinning on your left feels uncomfortable at first. But, just because it is an unusual feeling does not mean it's not possible nor desirable to be able to do so. I fully accept as I pointed out in my original post that the lead is vital, that's why the lead should begin in the previous half measure of the song. It may well be that the leader wishes to lead a series of contrast spins, counter-clockwise first then clockwise within the same full measure or some portion of it. I could see this as being a reasonable figure especially if it concludes with a partner dip to help the follower regain balance. I'm presuming you are dancing cross-body LA style.

I would hazard a guess that Julie is trying to say that the guy was going straight from one move into a double spin. I would imagine that she needed at least a beat to prep the step? If so then isn't there a risk that attempting to follow his (clumsy??) lead could end up in her doing harm to herself? I'm not a follower so I can't REALLY comment but my thinking is if you are worried that trying to follow a move is going to put you in a physically uncomfortable position then you shouldn't do it..

never a truer word mike... i spent 6 weeks out of dancing and in physio when i followed an over enthuasiastic yet clumsy lead a few years ago!

well if that's what was happening then the only two occasions that's anyway close to possible or desirable are:

1. when the follower leans in before the dance starts and says, "I'm telepathic, see if you can surprise me!" OR

2. when the follower leans in before the dance starts and says, "Hurt me...please!!!"

There's only one Thing I have to dissagree with... You Don't have to finish any dance with anyone angry or do anything on the dance floor if you feel he/she is dangerous. But in saying that no one i know will walk you into a wall. If you are uncomfortable with a move lets say Dips/ spins, Talk to the Guy first, as more than likely he'll have to think of a few more manouvers to give a good dance for you and for instance the women in Mullingar we are always happy to practice a move with me before we go the dancefloor. Talking builds confidence and trust.

Sorry it took me so long to reply

if he's spinning you on the 1, he's dancin On2...

there should have been a coma before we  oops.

He's dancing on 2 ...That does give an image alright. In dublin they test you before being allowed into an advanced class, maybe suggest it to the teacher about doing the same.

Joey Ramone:  On...2 you say?  Sounds like tree hugging hippie talk to me.

Lexiliplearner, its ok, your secret is safe - for now, remember small denominations in multiple brown evelopes

Maybe a wall was an exageration, but how about on the floor clutching a sprained ankle?  

Trust is like trying to borrow bus fare when stranded in the middle of the Scottish highlands with the only place open being the Kitty Club Pole Dancing Emporium on ladies night.   If you want it you have to earn it.        

/H.

Try it my way awhile or even just a day.. I garauntee you'll be a much happier dancer.

it's real good thing to be led good partner. Than you start trust him.

I wish to be led. even my steps are not perfect...

"Julie, I am presuming your weight on beat 7 is on your left leg. Most followers spin on their right leg so spinning on your left feels uncomfortable at first. But, just because it is an unusual feeling does not mean it's not possible nor desirable to be able to do so. I fully accept as I pointed out in my original post that the lead is vital, that's why the lead should begin in the previous half measure of the song. It may well be that the leader wishes to lead a series of contrast spins, counter-clockwise first then clockwise within the same full measure or some portion of it. I could see this as being a reasonable figure especially if it concludes with a partner dip to help the follower regain balance. I'm presuming you are dancing cross-body LA style."

You forget to take into account the direction of the turn, in which case the follower,Julie in this case, would be expected to execute a jazz turn (spinning right on the left leg, or left on the right leg) without so much as a prep. While jazz turns are not uncommon at an advanced level in solo footwork, they are not advisable in unchoreographed partnerwork.

Another thing to be taken into account is that this encounter took place during a class, in which the objective is to learn the move as taught. Whether what the leader was trying to do was "leadable" or not, he was incorrect. I have witnessed many leaders who will go through an entire class completely oblivious to the fact that they are leading a completely different move to what is being taught, that's all well and good but it robs the follower of the continuity needed to learn the following technique that accompanies the move being taught.

As far as your last point, there is little that will annoy more than being led into several difficult turns and then having that all topped off with a dip, contrary to popular belief, this does not aid in regaining balance.

Couldn't have said it better myself Laura, thanks . Especially re your last point... hear hear hear