I am trying to find a upcoming congress with second rate teachers??? Salsa Bonanza in Cork is the only one i know coming up soon but i certainly wouldnt consider the teachers to be second rate. In fact I would see Hache Y Machete up there as one of the best and i can assure you they dont come cheap !!! |
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Agreed, Hache and Machete classes were great in MamboCity this year!...& the year before their show was the best of the weekend...
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I had a look at the one you mentioned and it appears that it too has no programme online. It doesn't tell you what classes you are going to get, it doesn't say if there's going to be a live band, it doesn't say who the DJs are. I would find it difficult to make an informed choice without more information about the programme. It charges 25 yoyos to go to the "party" I wonder if anyone feels that's steep? It charges €195 for 2 days classes and parties. There are multiple congressos that charge half that. For example, Cubamemucho in Berlin charges €140 for 2 days of international teachers AND live music from Los Van Van, Tirso Duarte and Maykel Blanco y su Salsa Mayor. Edinburgh is charging approx €230 for 2 days congress, 3 parties AND 3 nights B&B in a 3 star hotel.
Would you be a teacher Mark? Joey how bout you?
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What do you mean when you ask if I would be a teacher??
Its all relative. You cant compare a congress in Berlin or Edinburgh which will get a far greater attendance with one in Dublin or Cork. Having organised Salsa School with Mike for the past 4 years I can assure you that it is a very tricky process and my greatest respect goes to anyone who organises a congress. Everything costs money (you would be amazed the sort of costs you encounter when you try to put together a congress - we were !!!) and the only income is from attendees. Any promoter has to realistically look at the numbers they expect will attend and see what they can afford with that money. Of course it is up to that promoter to make their event as attractive as possible and draw in the people. Not an easy job and lets face it, at the end of the day we have the choice to attend or not attend.
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Would i be a teacher, nope... tried it, was'nt for me... plus you certainly aint gonna get rich teaching or promoting as far as i can see.
There are plently of Congresses to chose from, as customer you gotta shop around...
Cheaper Congress abroad, plus flights, plus travel time, anual leave , getting to and from airports... verus convenience of staying in Eire, where you can drive yourself to the front door of the event.
Fairplay to JoeDavids, i dont know how he makes it cheaper to fly and attend landon latinfest... than stay home and goin for a few pints, but he does.. incrediable!
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I asked so that you might declare any vested interest you have-if you are in the business then that colours your comments. From your post you obviously are!
Mark, I disagree with your two justifications for price: you can attend or not; bigger congresses are cheaper. First, prices need to be justified based on the costs incurred and I don't believe that a take it or leave it attitude is helpful. Secondly, bigger congresses have greater costs-the key issue is the cost per participant not how big the congress is.
Fundamentally, I disagree that Edinburgh is not a meaningful comparison. The population basis is closer to Dublin/Cork than Dublin (pop. Edinburgh 468,00 pop. Cork 200,000, pop. Dublin 1.500 000+). So, yes, i am comparing like with like. The geographic location is comparable from the point of transporting teachers, teacher fees will be identical, and hotel costs according to EURSTAT (European statistics office) are also comparable.
So, what it comes down to is that some congresses charge more than others and you have pointed out one here in Ireland that does not compare well with one in a neighbouring country.
- Edited by westman09 on 22/07/2009 at 13:15
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Hi Guys i dont know much about running salsa congresses.. I take Marks point, i trust what he says because salsa school is one of the best prices with the same salsa teachers that othere promoters use for there salsa congresses or work shops in Ireland.. SALSA SCHOOL in my opinion is one of the best organized salsa congresses i have been in ireland..
As for the beast teachers that i have seen in a salsa congresses has to be Irish Salsa Congress..
As for the worst one have ro leave it to you... Beacause i am salsa Promoter.. hope you can understand that..
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Mario, what you are saying is that salsa school uses the same teachers as other congresses and that the other congresses charge more-WOW!!! I think that neatly makes the point I was putting forward! |
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Hey,
Just thought I'd weigh in here on the "Larger\Smaller" costs side of things. You might be surprised to hear this but the more people you have coming along to an event the lower your costs per person become. If we were to run Salsa School for half the number of people then we couldn't afford to do it for as little as we currently do so comparing our event with any other event on a purely price for price basis is unfair to the other events.
The fact of the matter is that we have twice as many people to spread facility\equipment\insurance\website\other fixed costs across, this allows us to run things at a lower cost per person. Also we are a non-profit event, when it comes down to it the other people running salsa congresses are doing it as a business and as such they are looking for (and believe me they deserve) a profit at the end of it to justify the time they have put in.
Also we've made a few basic decisions that have saved us significant costs such as not doing shows (which are surprisingly expensive to put on between additional lighting and performers fees) which again allow us to do a lower cost per person.
From what I have seen of the other Irish events they are generally fairly good value for money and if you look at the number of events that are no longer running (Salsamania’s Dublin and Galway congresses and the Belfast congress for example) you can see that there is a point at which running an event for a promoter just doesn't make sense anymore..
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While I think of it, if it wasn't the Cork Congress you were talking about then which one is it (I don't believe there are any more congresses running before the end of the year?) |
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Mario, thanks for your kind words.
Westman, It strikes me that you misunderstood what i said. I did not refer to a take it or leave it attitude but was simply saying that we as attendees have the choice of what congress we attend based on how attractive they appear. Not many can attend every congress. As Mike points out, once you get to a certain number of people the costs per person reduces as fixed costs such as venue etc. are covered.
In regard to comparisons, it is not about the size of the population in any city but rather the number of people who dance salsa and are willing to attend a congress. My experience of attending congresses is that some are expensive and worthwhile it other can be cheap but not worth it. Every congress has something to offer. However, I am very aware that there are expensive congresses out there and my reply was in no way defending them.
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Hi westman09,
Got to say you've added a bit of contention to the site, kudos, though I would say that its unfair to mention any congress by name, unless a complaint has been lodged with them via email first + they have had time to enter a dialog with you.
I dont think anyone posting has a hidden agenda or is a vested interest here. They are just giving their honest opinions, which may not always agree with you, but thats whats the site is for right? People using this site have a stong interest in things Salsa, many will be teachers, or organisers, or both.
Just some things you might not be aware of ( if you are new to the Irish Salsa scene? ):
The Salsa Congress in Maynooth is afaik completely non-profit, they do not use live bands or shows afaik, hence making the event quite reasonable pricewise for their customers. Mark/Mike are highly IT literate, not every Salsa organisers are uh... blessed with these skills, the lack of a program is an oversight I'd guess, should make it a bit of an adventure on day one
I'd agree with you in respect to pricing, some congresses are quite expensive, as was everything in Ireland until the bubble burst. There maybe something to the numbers argument, but I think its more likely to be combined with high prices for venues, higher consumables and high salaries / profit margins. If I'm mistaken here, please dont shoot the messenger, this is based on well... why most other industries have higher prices in Ireland.
I'd question the statement that salsa instructors cant make good money. During the drought of good instruction, when salsa was taking off and people had money to burn, I have no doubt that SOME salsa instructors cleaned up in that time. But times, like that song goes , they are changing.
Prices are falling, most congresses can now negotiate better deals with hotels, suppliers etc, competition is increasing, with lots of new quality teachers coming along - this is particularly easy to see in Galway, but you can also see this in Dublin too.
I think we may see a trend towards price reduction or perhaps added-value, if not this year, then soon. Market prices reflect disposable income and ultimately what people are willing to pay.
Cork last year was first my time at this congress, and even for a 33 year old fuddy duddy who didnt uh... 'get' the Monday beach party games, the memories I have of it, and the friends I made there, will remain the highlight of last year. The instruction ( Hillary, Anthony, Paul, Sylvia etc. ), was solid + great fun. In retrospect worth the money I paid.
Have you attended this congress before? Are you basing your comments on price alone? How do you base / decide what is first/second rate?
Anwho, welcome to the site westman09 - it interesting to see such lively + passionate debate.
/H. - Edited by Hugh1a on 23/07/2009 at 09:39
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Mark,
There was no misunderstanding-if what I understood was incorrect then what you wrote was unclear. The basis for understanding derives from what was communicated. Second, you state "it is not about the size of the population in any city but rather the number of people who dance salsa and are willing to attend a congress." The number of people who dance and are willing to attend is directly related to the population. As an extreme example, if no population then no one comes. Unless you are claiming that there is some organic variable that predisposes Edinburgh residents to dance salsa more than Irish?!!! Maybe they have better teachers...
Mike if you follow this link you might find a few congresses you didn't know about: http://www.worldsalsafestivals.org/?gclid=CLe60bz10pcCFQmKMAodzT4NDg
Second Mike (and Mark) the cost of salsa school looks very reasonable and I applaud your not-for-profit approach.
I notice Mike that you say "the other Irish events they are generally fairly good value for money." That's a very qualified statement (with some fine equivocation)-seems like there are some events at least that you think are not good value for money. I do understand that you have to reserve your opinion due to your position on this site-you have many promoters on here. That opinion about the lack of value is backed up by Hugh.
- Edited by westman09 on 25/07/2009 at 23:45
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Had a quick look at your link, I don't see any Irish events there that I don't already know about, the only additional one that we haven't discussed is the Atlantic Salsa Congress which I have yet to see any evidence that it is actually going to happen.. It was supposed to have already happened, then it was delay and now their website has no details about it at all.
In relation to the population issue, the fact of the matter is that Edinburgh has a larger turn out than Cork. I can only guess that this is because they have a larger available customer base that are within easy travelling distance (be it better public or private transport) than Cork. From what I can see they seem to be more comparable with the salsa school event numbers wise (this is solely based on the fact that they run 5 classes an hour and we run 6 classes an hour while Cork runs 3 classes an hour) than Cork and on that basis you can see that costs aren't that different between a UK event and an Irish one.
If we were running at the sort of attendance levels that Cork appears to have then our price would be very different per person..
Oh and I never meant to imply that Galway wasn't happening for financial reasons, just that there are less salsa events this year than there were just 2 years ago for a multitude of reasons for example family responsiblities are outweighing potential revenue to be made.
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Mike,
I never said it was an Irish event!!!
You are discounting the cost of attending a congress as a key driver and decision point for folks thinking about attending a congress and it's wrong to do that. There is no doubt that people are price sensitive. Salsa school gets good crowds and a substantial reason is because it is perceived as offering value, Edinburgh, Munich etc the same. Geography really isn't your thing Mike if you think that a January congress in Edinburgh facilitates ease of travel and that easy travelling was a key decision influencer for people attending that congress. It snowed!!! Heavily!!! It does that alot in Scotland at that time of the year. People who were travelling were hampered by the weather, travelling wasn't easy!!!
Ok, it's the English is giving me a problem cos you say:
I never meant to imply that Galway wasn't happening for financial reasons
I understand therefore that financial reasons have no bearing on why the Galway congress not happening...simple or so I think.
Then in the same sentence you say:
...family responsiblities are outweighing potential revenue to be made.
I understand now from what you say that if the potential revenue was greater then it could outweigh potentially the family responsibilities thus telling me that financial reasons are, in your opinion, at the core of why it's not happening.
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Hi Folks,
Just to clarify: expense and value are not quite the same thing. If you turned up to Maynooth and did two classes a day, with partys, then as far as I'm concerned, while it was still not expensive, but you didnt not get value for money. If you turn up for every single class, dance until your feet ache and your arms / legs feel like rubber for 3 whole days then truly you are getting brilliant value.
Expensive simply means that the price of goods do not always represent fair market value.
Ireland is an expensive country, however it is in a period of deflation ( what is commonly referred to as negative inflation  ). This is a double edged sword, but it does mean a certain amount of good can come from it. Including economic harmonisation ( aka survival of the fittest ) 
If this is applied to the salsa scene then schools / congresses will have to entice custom, perhaps by slashing their costs + lowering their prices, freezing their prices in the hopes that inflation will rise to meet them, enticing more people in with special promos/ innovations, or simply accepting that during this time they will have less students, less attendees and more price concious consumer spending in terms of which congresses will be attended.
Those that are already good value, or adapt on that basis or have some distinct advantages in terms of location / lack of viable competition will weather the downturn easily. Those that dont will figure out what to do eventually.
I do wonder however in terms of venues, why do congresses choose hotels? Maynooth shows us that there are great venues available without the expense/outlay you would see renting out a hotel. During the summer months surely there are tonnes of campus-like areas, especially in the major cities, that could accomodate large dancefloors? No?
Anywho, apologies, slightly off topic. 
MTC/H. - Edited by Hugh1a on 23/07/2009 at 11:51
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Good post Hugh, helpful for the economic philistines. I was particularly worried about a statement in an earlier post by a different poster that the only income derived from attendees at a congress. There are multiple, mainfold opportunities to exploit the cohort present particularly when you see the socio-demographic profile of congress attendees., for the most part ABC1s. The fact that promoters don't exploit this shows that being able to dance/teach/run a congress/make money are not all skills innate to the cognoscenti who do some or all of these.
I'm completely flabbergasted though that anyone would think that not having a programme up is acceptable and that lack of IT skills is a reasonable excuse. After all, if you have a web site then you have the IT skills, a programme is just another page. You can use MS Word and upload it, it smacks of oversight, lack of planning and certainly not thinking through and acting on what this potential consumer needs. By the way, I've come across a few congresses that don't have a programme up-someone else brought up Cork. For example, Marseille this year didn't have a programme up until very late in the day, and that's why I didn't go this year.
Excellent idea Hugh on the venue plus many of those campuses are in close proximity to accommodation-that being a key driver for the late-night partygoers. I haven't yet been to a congress in Ireland that did a focus group feedback after and coupled it with questionnaires and one-to-one interviews. You wanna win market share, make profit, promotoe salsa, get more people to dance you have to do the business used evidence-based decision-making. To do that you need data and some form of metrics to measure your data.
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Lads, its getting a bit hot a bothered in here. Its all good stuff though and there are def congresses out there that arent value for money and one aint too far from home. But it looks like you are taking it out on Mike and Mark Westman - whats the story? Fair play, they put together a rockin event for no profit - cant say i would be that mad but each to their own.
By the way, I was at Salsa School (great gig guys !!!) and i got a questionaire afterwards from Mike and Mark asking all about the weekend. Strikes me that they try to get feedback each year.
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Hi Folks,
Merryman, I'm guessing westman09 is unfamiliar with the Salsa Maynooth setup, which is ( as posted somewhere else ) the most well organised Salsa Congresses I have attended. Theirs is a fine example of what to do right, including feedback questionaires, 'what you should know before attempting...' details etc etc. Keep up the stellar work guys. 
I'd also guess that westman09 comes from a culture that doesnt always sugarcoat their opinions?  I work with a lot of teams that have this kind of directness in terms of the language they use and plenty complain that Ireland has high prices! 
That said, westman09, everyone on this site is pretty relaxed, its unlikely you'll find any problems with people trying to mislead or apply pressure on you to change your mind, if your mind is made up. Its all just about sharing opinions right? Thank you for the compliment - I didnt think about the easy access to accommodation, maybe we'll see something like that in the future - who knows? 
In regard to the programme, I know plenty of conference organisers, who wouldnt be able to string together two lines of HTML, let alone all the PERL, AJAX, jS, XML, CGI, XUL and whatvever else is the flavor of the month right now, instead they prefer to pay someone else to handle this, while they concentrate on being the best 'sensi/politician/dancer/IT Admin(!)' they can be. The lack of a detailed program is just a minor thing I think, not the end of the world? No? Shoot them a mail, they'll most likely have it sorted in a ijiffy. As you say, its just a word doc.
By the by, I used to be an ecconomic philistine ( back when I had a Cork accent ) and reading my last post, I'm beginning to think I was better off back then, as I'm starting to sound like one of Berties accountants   . Apologies if I wax lyrical about this stuff - it becomes second nature after a while
My last post on this topic, unless answering a direct question.
Peace. /H.
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