I don't see anything wrong with like-minded people grouping together and seeking out each other's company, it's a natural thing.  I also don't see a problem with people who are in pursuit of excellence seeking out company of a similar or higher standard - it's a great way to drive progress.  In the context of a salsa club, people will want to dance with a partner of a similar or higher standard to get maximum enjoyment from the dance or to improve their own dancing.  That's no excuse to be rude to someone of a lower level who asks you to dance.  If someone isn't happy with the standard of dancing in a club, go find a different club - it can be frustrating at times if you're not getting anything new or exciting yourself, but if someone walks up to you and asks you for a dance then I think you should always at least try to give them the best dance you can.  Anyone who thinks that someone isn't worth the effort because of the standard of their dancing is just an asshole.

Hi Ciaran,

Thanks for the reply-post!    Just to clarify I make the distinction between circle of friends, which arguably is healthy  ( those that worked well in teams had an evolutionary advantage - those that didnt , died out. ) 

Friends to me all about inclusion.  Cliques, the reverse.  Other threads have talked about dance ettiquette, thats not really what I mean.

I would agree that those inside a clique have some definitive advantages e.g. faster progress.  Not denying 'in crowd', automatic-positive-regard , or that intellectual vampirism isnt commonplace in most sports / hobbies, of course it is.    There is an inbuilt desire in almost everyone to belong, cliques by their nature take advantage of that, use that desire to elevate based on a precieved status.

Otherwise, how would they propagate?

Heck, I've been in enough in my uber-youth to know em when I see em, but now, now that I'm a little older, a little wiser, the people I think are really cool,the people I aspire to, really, really, really dont give a toss about such things - and are as free with their help, information and friendship as water passes through their collective fingers.  

Cliques in the workplace, in my experience tend to range from the simple to the complex, but the stuff I see from time to time in Salsa, albeit rarely, borders on the school yard

Thats not an opinion from someone who wants 'in', I hope I havent given that impression, its from someone who enjoys Salsa as a pastime, and occasionally notices with a mild analytical curiosity, that the flaws in the human condition can infect even something as free and fun-loving as Salsa.... 

Like I said its a contentious subject, some will say they are natural, some will deny their existence altogether, some will equate it to some isolated slight from one or more dancers which is clearly wrong.  Its a group activity, and in my opinion, an ugly one

MTC/H

Ways to break a Clique:

1 Smile and be Happy - hard to do as you haven't been invited in.

2 Keep asking the ones you wanna dance with, eventually your face becomes familiar and then they'll give it a go and you show them how foolish it was not to say yes in the first place.

3 All Cliques have a leader.. this is the most common way to enter a group/clique... Most group leaders are very happy people ( for obvious reasons) , so by introding yourself to the top, you then get noticed by the Bottum. NOT the other way around.

4  Some people go from one clique to another so don't believe there's no way in.

5 In salsa- i think the easiest way to turn a definite NO to a yes is sit next to her when there's a song on.. She might even ask you (dying for another dance). (if your that desperate to get in the salsa clique)

Personnally i think there's always plenty of people that you may have danced with in the class that you'll know will say yes and they already know how bad you danced in that class but wanna dance anyway  

STAY HAPPY ALL

                                                                                  Footnote: Once in the group, don't be the same to others.

Hi LL, 

I think you are mis-interpreting what I mean.  Its not about "will I get a dance?", its not about "getting in" to one, its about how asinine they are in the first place.    Advising how to get into one??!?! I appreciate your opinion LL - but oh lord - thats not good in mine - thats actively SUPPORTING IT???!!!     

My take on that : do the exact opposite.    Cliques are the adult form of bullying.  Silent, hard to police, and equally devastating to those that are seen as weak, or helpless or those that 'dont quite fit'.     My advice is not to ignore, but to remember such behaviour and not to tolerate it, join it or in anyway dance with anyone within one.     Life may be a zero-sum game, but living it might not have to be.

If I were clique orientated in Salsa, I would have missed out on so much - the dance with the lady for example, who was as charming as charming can be.  

Who in the name of all things good WANTS to know ( or be )a clique leader - as the leaders, they should be abhorred most of all!

Class mates, become friends, thats natural.  That again however is not what I'm talking about.   Sigh - its not, repeat, NOT about getting a dance from one salcera or another.  ( I usually put a paper bag over my head and carry a caveman club for emergencies that seems to do the trick )

clique : a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons   ( usually revolving around a specific interest ).    

Narrow + exclusive? 

Footnote on Footnote:   people who include in an exclusive group is a contradiction.

Tc4n/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 26/02/2010 at 15:44

Cliques or Clicks whatever you want to call them exist, thats the nature of the beast.

Yes Hugh i agree with the point that they are in essence not good but then again maybe they are.

If we look back through time as far back as the beginning of time it's the pack/Group mentality and if we take it that it has been engrained into our soul into our very being into our DNA then there is nothing we can do about it, is there???

All we can do is be aware of it and to be nice and polite to everyone (I try but it does not work all the time but i try)

Personally I know of them I know some of them but not all of them, as there are many and some of them, the 'member's' of said 'clique' are not even aware it is a 'clique' and maybe it's not, maybe that is a group of friends being together in a club but they are being perceived as a clique.

I also remember my first few classes and the first time I asked people to dance and also my first refusals, what was worse was being a newbie in a new club (city) and being refused by all but 1 person, yes i asked 12 people and the 12th said yes, maybe they felt sorry for me who knows but I got a dance, not that I needed one that bad, at that point I was going for the record number of refusals in 1 night.

Now that stays with me and Yes I do dance with people a lot of the time on my level or above BUT I also do spend time every time I go out to dance with new people, fresh faces, beginners, people learning, just so I can improve my dancing and meet new people, who knows I might find a Gem among them a true natural who will set the world on fire, but mostly I do it for fun also also because i know what it's like to be new.

So in conclusion i'd say - I have no idea if they are good or bad.

Good if you are in one

bad if you are not.

Me, Personally, I consider myself in 1 click - MINE me and only me, that's the way I roll

Nice post Davy , should be more people who believe as you do in terms of helping newcomers and generally dancing at all levels indiscriminately.  In regard to the conclusion however I would say the reverse : They are bad if you are in one ; good if you are not. 

Long term, cliques just hold you back, make you less of a well rounded person - did they really gain by refusing you 12 times?  No I'd say they lost out yes?  

TC /H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 10/03/2010 at 08:45

Cliques are the most toxic thing in the salsa community, of course you're going to have your group of friends, that's perfectly natural but the act of trying to intimidate and exclude people from that group is immature at best. The problem within towns and cities in Ireland is that there are too few dancers to be able to absorb these cliques, so it becomes noticeable for a lot of people in the club, newbies included.

When I lived in Toronto there were definitely cliques, but it wasn't as noticeable due to the fact that there are over 3000 dancers in Toronto (only including those actively taking lessons from a school). People who learned with the same school certainly stood together most of the night, as they knew each other best, but they danced with students from other schools, and with "outsiders" alike.

I have heard complaints from all corners recently that salsa has become like a school-yard in several Dublin clubs and it's deterring those people from dancing more regularly. I have to disagree with Dave that it's a natural thing that people have fallen into, it's very premeditated.

There are arguements for and against i guess.

Personally, i dont like them im not in 1, i just go around dancing with everyone, because i enjoy dancing with everyone, and i know some of the most fun dances ive had are just with random people ive never met before. Plus, i remember the joy i felt when i was a beginner when a more advanced dancer asked me up.

Also, about "levels", i know some "advanced" people dont dance with beginners because they say, they are there to have fun, and good dances etc, but if you are truely a good dancer, you can have a good dance with anyone. I think they are just afraid a beginner might make them look bad, so its easier to dance in their comfort zone, with people in their clique who know all their moves and can make them look better.

I will say this, there are cliques in every level of the salsa social strata. There are cliques within classes, clubs, and even counties.

I know some people that view Dublin as a clique. not me though

Ciaran said:

"In the context of a salsa club, people will want to dance with a partner of a similar or higher standard to get maximum enjoyment from the dance or to improve their own dancing"

I agree, all the more reason why we should dance with everyone.

To summarise, yes, cliques are silly petty immature things. But we gotta accept they are part of life, they will always exist everywhere, and are perfectly entitiled to do so. Share the love, dance with someone you dont know.

Hi Tom,

Interesting, you've gotten rid of your handle?     I agree we all want to dance at a similar level, but is that really what cliques are about?  I dont think so.   

As for petty yes, immature, sometimes, but not necessarily.  It doest take much to see how such things can faciliate situs from bad to down right awful.   I would agree they are part of life, in the same way bullying, spouse beating etc. are. They will always exist perhaps, but I disagree that they are entitled to - who was it that said, great evil can triumph simply by the inaction of good men?  Whoever it was I agree with him/her.    

The only reason they flourish is because we allow them to.

Peace/H.

Cliques flourish because of peoples desire to fit in. People naturally feel safe in a group, tribe, team, or clique. They will only disappear when, like me people stop caring what others think of them, and just be themselves.

As for my handle, there is no kat to my Tom anymore.

The only reason they flourish is because we allow them to... No , no no.. it's because the people in them allow it to flourish.

The fact is they do exist. Looking at them like bullies doesn't add up. Unless they take your lunch money. By them saying no do a dance does not exclude you from dancing with many others in the room.

For it's always been a level of experience issue/ fear factor issue/ fast tempo music issue / unknown bachata/reuda/cha cha cha dance issue. Clique issues are small time issues.

Aditional : nobody is in a clique in beginners.

define "allow them to" what do you propose? we go around with a stick and stop people from standing in groups?

Uh uh, LL + Tom, there is no difference whatsoever in my eyes.  The only difference is the weapons used.   The traditional bullies use peer pressure and violence to impose their authority, but once we grow up, such behavior is not tolerated in adulthood, lunch money is substituted for something else. And so the methodology changes, and gets sophisticated.  We have faternities, facebook/bebo style lockouts / flaming + uh.. whatever that group of idiots in Grease wearing the leather jackets called themselves.   Exclusive groups with delusions of superiority, and worse we allow it to be by tolerating it.

In short the adult form of bullying and you dont have to look far to read/see how bullying can be devastating to kids, teenagers, twenty somethings ++.   We are all hardwired to want to belong, cliques are the dark side of that imo.    

We as a people dont have to tolerate it, thats not the same has hitting them with a stick.   Lead by example, is one tried and tested method, and not to reward clique-ish behaviour is another.    Observe the warning symptoms, and say to yourself "hey I dont care how pretty or handsome or good you are at dancing, if you/your group treat human beings like that, you dont get a dance from me ".   Its not much, by itself, but if everyone does it, people will get the message.  Society dictates the parameters of society behaviour no?

I'm not saying its easy, its easiest to say and do nothing.  ( it was Edmund Burke ( I googled it - he was an Irish philosopher, cool! ) .

ET+A/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 31/03/2010 at 11:07

I get it hugh, we should create a clique that excludes cliques!

Hi Tom,

Yep, the irony wasnt not lost on me when I wrote that, but remember, a clique is about exclusion, provided the criteria used for inclusion is genuinity, honesty and integrity, "to be nice to others without thought of gain", without thought of race, sex, religion, creed etc, with the prerequisite only of friendly good measure. Then we are getting somewhere.    If we include people on that basis, what a world we would make.

On that basis I see no problem in taking a certain level of pointed hypocrasy in my suggestion if the benefit occurring from the wake is that of a attaining a better salsa environment for all?

As I stated earlier, the cliques in Salsa are really schoolyard central afaics.   Should not be too difficult to improve situation a bit

TC/H.

- Edited by Hugh1a on 31/03/2010 at 23:47

ps: sorry about the lighthearted handle remark - wasn't thinking - filed under dozy question #984483.